New UFO files released in UK

[TangoSixteen]

No you don't need a sun. You need the equivalent power of an exploding sun. You got any idea how much power that is.

and this is on theories at the edge of our understanding which probably aren't accurate.

Its quite a lot.

But then consider how much power we generate from nuclear fission/fusion with the atom/hydrogen bombs.

Anyway, no ones interested in worm holes just yet. Bending space time and Anti grav should be first. THEN we can think about using black holes etc, as we would be able to get to them that much more quickly.

No one could have conceived that amount of energy before.

When we master continous fusion, we will have huge reserves of power on Earth to make better things. Like moar anti matter maybe!

Who knows. The point is that its all cool as hell, and we will get there no matter what.

Its just a shame NASA are almost on their own when it comes to the amount of money that they plough into all the cool research.

 

[Glaucus]

Exploding sun iciest power, it's a nuclear power plant with a reactor 100s of times larger than the earth. This is how they think you can go FTL.

 

[Bulldog14]

They never will, even when there a greater threat or no threat at all individuals will fight and squabble.





The point you start losing, which is why some of us developed weapons to such a level that we physically cannot go to war with each other any more, now the war is waged in other ways.




A species? no, a species is not a homogeneous group.

A country can see the point at which conflict would greatly out weight the benefits (look at the events around the Cuban missile crisis) but only because there is a small number of people in charge, when you take the country as a whole there where still large numbers on both sides willing to send each other to a fiery death even if it meant they would too.






Or you'll meet the ones that won, and then later encountered the ones that put conflict aside and duly got massacred for it.





Doesn't fit, you can't have a civilization so ethical then willing to commit genocide, that's just a cheap plot trick for a scifi movie that wanted to make a point but couldn't.

It's like saying the Jains who are so ethical they go so far as to not even kill plants for food (only taking what can be taken without killing the plant), and filter their water (and return the retentate to the source) to prevent killing whatever lives in it would put mouse traps down in their kitchens.

It just doesn't fit.

Your looking at it from our current standpoint if you put it like that. Humans are at that crossroad right now and it could go either way. The point is that IF we are to have a reasonable chance to advance off this planet we will have put aside those issues that you mentioned that seperate us right now and go forth with a collective spririt of co-operation. If anything is "alien" I admit this is it. A sense of real co-operation on global scale is not something humanity has a sense of. Sure some companies, and countries work together with impressive results, but the bulk of the population is left out. Lets put it this way. If we don't start really co-operating soon, then this planet will be nothing but a graveyard in a few hundred years.

BTW "Jains"? I'm not British so I don't know what that means? Housewives or vegetarians by the looks of the context.

 

[Bulldog14]

Its quite a lot.

But then consider how much power we generate from nuclear fission/fusion with the atom/hydrogen bombs.

Anyway, no ones interested in worm holes just yet. Bending space time and Anti grav should be first. THEN we can think about using black holes etc, as we would be able to get to them that much more quickly.

No one could have conceived that amount of energy before.

When we master continous fusion, we will have huge reserves of power on Earth to make better things. Like moar anti matter maybe!

Who knows. The point is that its all cool as hell, and we will get there no matter what.

Its just a shame NASA are almost on their own when it comes to the amount of money that they plough into all the cool research.

To be honest thou what most people forget when talking about the wonders of nuclear fusion, and proposed matter/anti-matter reactions is that the generated electricity is still only drawn off indirectly. It comes via the steam turbine that the heat of the reaction turns. Not much more advanced than the steam engines of a 150 years ago. There is no real viable technology that allows us to draw power directly from such a powerful reaction. Until that comes I don't see us advancing much beyond chemical rockets. You can put all the fusion reactors you want on a spaceship, but it is still essentially getting it's power from a steam turbine.

 

[Glaucus]

There is no real viable technology that allows us to draw power directly from such a powerful reaction. Until that comes I don't see us advancing much beyond chemical rockets..

If we did not have various nuclear bomb testing treatys. we could use nuclear propulsion. Where a small bomb is dropped behind the craft and the craft picks up momentum from the blast wave. Repeat this several thousand times over 36days and you are moving at 8-12% speed of light.

Once we start having bases in space, it should be looked at again.

 

[Tefal]

The point is that IF we are to have a reasonable chance to advance off this planet we will have put aside those issues that you mentioned that seperate us right now and go forth with a collective spririt of co-operation.

Why do we?

Nearly all our advances into space travel so far have come from conflict.

It's quite a radical idea that doing the exact opposite to everything that's worked so far would help.

If we don't start really co-operating soon, then this planet will be nothing but a graveyard in a few hundred years.

If all where to work together for the greater good of mankind then it would have to be accepted there will be loses, certain people would be a hinderence and would have to be removed.

Which would mean they wouldn't cooperate and it would all fall apart, everyone trying to make sure their groups isn't the ones left to starve, provides a good driving force.

BTW "Jains"? I'm not British so I don't know what that means? Housewives or vegetarians by the looks of the context.

It's an Indian religion (Jainism) some of them are very strict in their beliefs about not harming any life.

Basically they're your definition of an "evolved respect for life" and proof that such a race wouldn't wipe us out as an infestation as to them a single insect is as precious as one of them.

 

[Tefal]

You can put all the fusion reactors you want on a spaceship, but it is still essentially getting it's power from a steam turbine.

No the fusion powered craft work on drawing some energy off (i can't remember how) and using it to produce the magnetic field to confine the reaction and to shape it and blast it out the back iirc.


look up fusion rocket/space ship on wiki has a selection of different designs.

 

[Bulldog14]

Why do we?

Nearly all our advances into space travel so far have come from conflict.

It's quite a radical idea that doing the exact opposite to everything that's worked so far would help.



If all where to work together for the greater good of mankind then it would have to be accepted there will be loses, certain people would be a hinderence and would have to be removed.

Which would mean they wouldn't cooperate and it would all fall apart, everyone trying to make sure their groups isn't the ones left to starve, provides a good driving force.




It's an Indian religion (Jainism) some of them are very strict in their beliefs about not harming any life.

Basically they're your definition of an "evolved respect for life" and proof that such a race wouldn't wipe us out as an infestation as to them a single insect is as precious as one of them.

Indeed, but the thing is when does the use of "advancement thru conflict" take us over a cliff. Sure it has advanced us, but at some point that method will lead to disaster. Hence my earlier comment about it being ironic.

As to some people losing out in a "greater good scenario" I never said it was fair or even the right way to do something. Your probably right that some will get left behind as others unite and that even further along the timeline the united dominate, and the losers starve to death and become extinct. That said we can't exclude this as a possible future just because it doesn't fit to peoples ideals of "fair". The world is not a fair place.

Thanks for explaining Jains. Now that you mention it, it does ring a bell.

 

[Bulldog14]

No the fusion powered craft work on drawing some energy off (i can't remember how) and using it to produce the magnetic field to confine the reaction and to shape it and blast it out the back iirc.


look up fusion rocket/space ship on wiki has a selection of different designs.

I think your refering to the "nuclear engines" on some probes that use radiated particles from the decaying substance as a means of propulsion. The thing is that I don't see how anything like that could ever be powerful enough to propel a massive spaceship with people inside it. It's fine for tiny probes, and such, but not practical on a large scale.

The most promising technology I have ever read to date is an "Ion engine". It seems that a massive amount of thrust can be created by forcing ions out of a vectored engine. Rumor has it that this is what powers the Aurora spy plane, and allows it to fly at the edge of the atmosphere were conventional jets just can't get enough air to generate thrust.

 

[TangoSixteen]

Bulldog,

Ion drives only produce the TINIEST amount of thrust.

What makes them work in space is that they can produce this minisule amount of thrust for hundreds of years, thus continually accelerating the craft to high speeds.

The Aurora spyplane was rumoured to use SCRAM jets, OR a pulse detonation wave type engine.

 

[Bulldog14]

Bulldog,

Ion drives only produce the TINIEST amount of thrust.

What makes them work in space is that they can produce this minisule amount of thrust for hundreds of years, thus continually accelerating the craft to high speeds.

The Aurora spyplane was rumoured to use SCRAM jets, OR a pulse detonation wave type engine.

Hmmm I pretty sure Ion was the one with all the thrust and the nuclear engine was the one that produced the low long lasting power. I do know that the rumor is that the Aurora SCRAM jets, but I havn't heard of pulse wave detonation. Who knows thou maybe your right. It all classified anyways /tinfoilhat Maybe Magick will come back and enlighten us

 

[Tefal]

I think your refering to the "nuclear engines" on some probes that use radiated particles from the decaying substance as a means of propulsion.

No that's ion drives, it;s ionised gas passed through a magnetic field to get it to incredible speeds (but it's only a few particles so takes a long time to accelerate.)

The fusion based systems are theoretical/ground testing prototypes at best.

They bypass a large amount of the problems with torus because they don't try to contain the plasma.

The thing is that I don't see how anything like that could ever be powerful enough to propel a massive spaceship with people inside it. It's fine for tiny probes, and such, but not practical on a large scale.

Yeah you're thinking of ion drives these things are huge fusion rockets i essence and produce a lot of thrust.

The most promising technology I have ever read to date is an "Ion engine". It seems that a massive amount of thrust can be created by forcing ions out of a vectored engine.

No the ion engine is a very small amount of thrust iirc but is very economical, if you don't mind 18 months acceleration you can get a small probe very fast.

ie you could never use an ion drive in atmosphere as it wouldn't be able to over come the drag from the air.

Rumor has it that this is what powers the Aurora spy plane, and allows it to fly at the edge of the atmosphere were conventional jets just can't get enough air to generate thrust.

No an ion drive would be utterly useless for that, the "Aurora " if it exists will likley use the same stuff as the proposed space plane/hypersonic missiles, scramjets.

 

[Radiation]

Except if they are particles, you wont see all which is happening, things colliding with each other. Gas venting from manoeuvring thrusters and a hole hose of other things that can change speed and direction.

I've heard this before and while it would make for a reasonable explanation theres a few problems with it, like how only certain objects change direction seemingly independent of others and how a few actually slow down, stop and then reverse direction, no amount of jets or particle collisions account for such behavior, i imagine some of them could be debris or particles but a few defy explanation.

 

[ojrules]

Its quite a lot.

But then consider how much power we generate from nuclear fission/fusion with the atom/hydrogen bombs.

Anyway, no ones interested in worm holes just yet. Bending space time and Anti grav should be first. THEN we can think about using black holes etc, as we would be able to get to them that much more quickly.

No one could have conceived that amount of energy before.

When we master continous fusion, we will have huge reserves of power on Earth to make better things. Like moar anti matter maybe!

Who knows. The point is that its all cool as hell, and we will get there no matter what.

Its just a shame NASA are almost on their own when it comes to the amount of money that they plough into all the cool research.

you fail at science


/thread

 

[Holliday]

As much as I'd love to add more than a few vids to this debate, my physics isn't really up to date so I'd rather not embarrass myself.

From most of the videos I've seen of apparent UFO's, these ones seem the most convincing of ET craft, not so much because they're from NASA, but because of the way they act.

 

[Bulldog14]

No that's ion drives, it;s ionised gas passed through a magnetic field to get it to incredible speeds (but it's only a few particles so takes a long time to accelerate.)

The fusion based systems are theoretical/ground testing prototypes at best.

They bypass a large amount of the problems with torus because they don't try to contain the plasma.





Yeah you're thinking of ion drives these things are huge fusion rockets i essence and produce a lot of thrust.


No the ion engine is a very small amount of thrust iirc but is very economical, if you don't mind 18 months acceleration you can get a small probe very fast.

ie you could never use an ion drive in atmosphere as it wouldn't be able to over come the drag from the air.




No an ion drive would be utterly useless for that, the "Aurora " if it exists will likley use the same stuff as the proposed space plane/hypersonic missiles, scramjets.

Indeed I might have "drive" and "engine" confused in this case then. Getting back to our alien friends thou, I personally would find solid evidence of alien visitation more interesting from the tech standpoint, than a "are we alone" standpoint. The confirmation of aliens visiting us would mean that they found an FTL method, and that given enough time and resources we could develop it as well. It would move an element of science fiction into science fact. This because there is something more somber to consider. It could very well be that light is the ultimate speed limit and that it is not possible to break this limit, and that FTL is impossible. This would suck greatly, but has a reasonable probability of being the reality of the matter.

 

[Glaucus]

I've heard this before and while it would make for a reasonable explanation theres a few problems with it, like how only certain objects change direction seemingly independent of others and how a few actually slow down, stop and then reverse direction, no amount of jets or particle collisions account for such behavior, i imagine some of them could be debris or particles but a few defy explanation.

Only particles hit by others change direction or interact act. Now in air there is billions of particles so you seem to get a uniform pattern of movement, but is in fact pretty chaotic, with particles going in every direction, just that as there are so many you get most doing roughly the same thing.
In space it is a vacuum, with very few particles. so the interaction is much less and so gives a much less uniform result.

 

[ojrules]

FTL isnt possible.. nor is travelling at the speed of light. My knoledge of relitivity is slightly hazy, so i don't know what would happen to craft travelling at speeds near to the speed of light, except a tremendous increase in their mass, and an expontential increase in energy needed... all i can say is i certainly wouldnt want to be inside one..



^^ its called brownian motion...

admitadly in that video, some of those rocks/particles/lizard overlords, do change direction quickly and weirdly, and i don't have an explanation for that....

 

[Bulldog14]

FTL isnt possible.. nor is travelling at the speed of light. My knoledge of relitivity is slightly hazy, so i don't know what would happen to craft travelling at speeds near to the speed of light, except a tremendous increase in their mass, and an expontential increase in energy needed... all i can say is i certainly wouldnt want to be inside one..



^^ its called brownian motion...

admitadly in that video, some of those rocks/particles/lizard overlords, do change direction quickly and weirdly, and i don't have an explanation for that....

You could hardly say that for sure. It is true that to propel something according to classic newtonian pshysics to anywhere near the speed of light would require an increasing amount of the object to be converted to energy. However, FTL indicates a "bypass method" be put in use. Warping space or wormholes being 2 potential methods.

 

[ojrules]

ok then it isnt "faster than the speed of light"... we're back to wormholes, which are a compeltely untested and unseen(?) phenomena... Blackholes are seen like this weird thing that happens in space, but the basic physics of it isn't that scary or difficult... wormholes are something completely different and largely unrelated to black holes... i may aswell say the invisible magic apple that lives in my fridge enables me to FTL ... its just as a valid argument


"Warping space".. we're back to this again, so you need something reallly massive ( its not about density- some black holes have a similar density to water!!!!), with the energy available to us in this galaxy i don't see it being remotely possible.... because i presume you're talking about " warping space time" beyond what black holes already do...