NHS=Negligent Health Service

[Energize]

Possibly as wasn't someone a few posts back advocating turning them away? Again the totalitarian utilitarian would say that's an opportunity lost. Let them in then make them work for their debt. Presumably in some kind of house of work set up to make sure they paid every penny with interest. I mean that would be a delightful right thing to do that our ancestors would never say they got wrong, or spend hours debating in the press and parliament of the time...

Basically indentured servitude then which is illegal under international law.

 

[Werewolf]

I think everyone feels that to some degree but the problem is what constitutes "contributing". There are many different ways and abilities to do that, and not all of them depend on being waged or on PAYE.

It might be easier to define in terms of those "actively detracting from society" persistent thieves etc

Yup

My mother didn't do a paid job for most of her adult life.

However she and my father fostered for something like 20 years back when most foster parents were not paid anything (I think she mentioned they only got child allowance*), she volunteered at all sorts of local charities, and until she got too ill she spent something like 20 years helping out at the local school.
So she didn't get a salary but if you look at the modern fostering system she probably did something like 300-400k worth of work for basically free (they often had two children, sometime 3 if there was an urgent short term placement), then when she was in her 50's she was often doing 3-4 days a week at a local school helping out.

A lot of people that "don't contribute" in terms of taxes for whatever reason do so in other ways, for example most people that care for someone in the family don't tend to get paid for it (other than possibly carers allowance or "the dole"), but save the government several times that.


*And that it came as a surprise that when they stopped they got a small amount extra as apparently they should have been receiving a small stipend to cover clothing or something for the kids (who often arrived with very little and needed things like school uniforms), and got something like a couple of years of back payments for that .

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

So an update on my mum. She has finally been moved from Gloucester Royal Hospital after nearly 11 weeks since her hip replacement and subsequent fall when left by a nurse on her way to the bathroom. We've got more info in 4 days from the new hospital than we did in 10 weeks from GRH. We've been told she can't walk, that her left leg is 10cm shorter than her right due to the floating hip and she needs a wedged shoe to be able to start physio that might get her walking again. GRH didn't supply a shoe or let us know she needed one so we could have sourced one. Clearly she has missed out on weeks of physio and given her age and weakened state she may never walk again and her quality of life has certainly been dramatically effected. There are other things that they've got wrong but no point going into everything.

So now we are planning to move forward with legal action. We wrote to the trust 3 weeks ago, they say they'd started an investigation. They've offered to discuss how it works with us on the phone but we aren't really that interested in hearing how the investigation works. The care my mother received was way below what I would expect and think she or any other patient should expect. Obviously there are 1000s of no win no fee law firms out there so any advice would be most welcome

Edit: advice received.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

Yup

My mother didn't do a paid job for most of her adult life.

However she and my father fostered for something like 20 years back when most foster parents were not paid anything (I think she mentioned they only got child allowance*), she volunteered at all sorts of local charities, and until she got too ill she spent something like 20 years helping out at the local school.
So she didn't get a salary but if you look at the modern fostering system she probably did something like 300-400k worth of work for basically free (they often had two children, sometime 3 if there was an urgent short term placement), then when she was in her 50's she was often doing 3-4 days a week at a local school helping out.

A lot of people that "don't contribute" in terms of taxes for whatever reason do so in other ways, for example most people that care for someone in the family don't tend to get paid for it (other than possibly carers allowance or "the dole"), but save the government several times that.


*And that it came as a surprise that when they stopped they got a small amount extra as apparently they should have been receiving a small stipend to cover clothing or something for the kids (who often arrived with very little and needed things like school uniforms), and got something like a couple of years of back payments for that .

Sounds like your folks are amazing people. Fostering must be such hard work, so many children coming from damaged backgrounds. I take my hat off to them.

 

[AndyT]

If the British want to maintain a decent Health Service everybody has to pay more, somehow. Either higher taxes, higher prescriptions, partial pay at the point of service or a combination of all of it. The NHS in its current form is clearly unsustainable, but there is an incredibly strong emotional connection to it that seems to override any rational or logical thinking of how to deal it with it properly. I just came here from the Mental Health thread and there's a poor guy in there who can't get anyone in the NHS to listen to him. The UK needs to completely rethink the NHS, and inject some logic/rational thinking into the situation. It will be difficult as it is politicised so heavily, but eventually something will have to be done.

Try medical care overseas, you’ll soon realise you have no idea how good the NHS actually is.

Fair point, but, medical care in other developed countries can also be significantly better than that provided by the NHS. Just for example, based on personal experience in France:

• Anyone can book any doctor, dentist or specialist anytime, anywhere via a national app or website (DoctoLib.fr).
• GP appointments are 20 to 30 minutes, thorough and never rushed.
• Blood tests are booked at local laboratories within a few days and results are usually received in under 24 hours. I have been first thing in the morning and always received them the same day. Then you take them to the doctor for his opinion.
• My wife had a cancer scare, went to the GP, got a prescription for a mammogram, booked herself in for a scan within 2 weeks, and received the results within 3 days.
• My wife also had a brain hemorrhage scare, went to A&E and was seen in under 2 hours, had an MRI scan in the same visit and was sent home with the results in an envelope in under 5 hours.
• Hospitalisation is free.
• Management of long term health conditions is free.
• Anything to do with pregnancy is free.
• Other treatment is paid for at the point of service (e.g. GP appointment is 25Euro) with an instant reimbursement of 80% via the social security system. You can pay for additional insurance to cover the rest, employers often provide this as a benefit (mutuelle).

True, you have to manage some things yourself, i.e. booking of specialists, blood tests etc., but this works as it takes the burden of admin from the doctors, and leaves them free to do what they are trained and paid to do.

I can't believe how much better the standard of care is here, Brits don't know what they are missing, seriously.

 

[tres]

Fair point, but, medical care in other developed countries can also be significantly better than that provided by the NHS. Just for example, based on personal experience in France:

• Anyone can book any doctor, dentist or specialist anytime, anywhere via a national app or website (DoctoLib.fr). Big benefits to this - we certainly don't have a functioning IT system for this to be a valid option (which is ridiculous), but you also lose any continuinity of care with a named GP (or at least named practice)
• GP appointments are 20 to 30 minutes, thorough and never rushed. 15 minute will be the new norm here. We don't have the GP numbers or government funding to have any more than this. UK GP wages are comparatively poor compared to France.
• Blood tests are booked at local laboratories within a few days and results are usually received in under 24 hours. I have been first thing in the morning and always received them the same day. Then you take them to the doctor for his opinion. This should be the case now, if bloods are urgent or important you should get them done within a day. Results will be back to the GP & reviewed within a day or so.
• My wife had a cancer scare, went to the GP, got a prescription for a mammogram, booked herself in for a scan within 2 weeks, and received the results within 3 days. Should be the same in the UK.
• My wife also had a brain hemorrhage scare, went to A&E and was seen in under 2 hours, had an MRI scan in the same visit and was sent home with the results in an envelope in under 5 hours. Should be the same in the UK.
• Hospitalisation is free. Same.
• Management of long term health conditions is free. Same.
• Anything to do with pregnancy is free. Same.
• Other treatment is paid for at the point of service (e.g. GP appointment is 25Euro) with an instant reimbursement of 80% via the social security system. You can pay for additional insurance to cover the rest, employers often provide this as a benefit (mutuelle). UK better.

True, you have to manage some things yourself, i.e. booking of specialists, blood tests etc., but this works as it takes the burden of admin from the doctors, and leaves them free to do what they are trained and paid to do.

I can't believe how much better the standard of care is here, Brits don't know what they are missing, seriously.

 

[fez]

I can't believe how much better the standard of care is here, Brits don't know what they are missing, seriously.

The UK had the best ranked healthcare system in the world 5 years ago. I doubt that much has changed since then.

You are also comparing apples and oranges. The UK is a fantastically unhealthy country where everyone thinks they should be able to drink, smoke and be a fat sack of **** and "because I pay my taxes" the NHS should pick up the bill. Most people don't realise how little they contribute to the system vs how much they suck out of it. Most people are not net contributors.

If we want to save the NHS we will have to start actually being pragmatic and realistic and stop the woke BS that says nothing is every your own fault and start actually penalising people for making awful health choices for years and years. Either that or it will just have to reduce its cover and only be available for certain things.

Healthcare is a black hole for money when you have an ageing, unhealthy and entitled population at a time when medical care is getting more and more expensive. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[AndyT]

...

Yeah, but it's not better, or the same. Anyone I know from the UK who lives here (there are many) think/know that the care is better here. It subjectively, and in many cases objectively is better. The UK public can pretend the NHS is the greatest, but it isn't, and people should not be afraid to say it.

I've always been able to get an appointment with the same GP, so continuity of care is maintained Although I'm not sure that's it's that important to most people. Just getting an appointment seems to be a challenge in the UK. I think most people would rather just be able to see any GP ASAP..

 

[AndyT]

The UK had the best ranked healthcare system in the world 5 years ago. I doubt that much has changed since then.

It has dropped several places. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world

You are also comparing apples and oranges. The UK is a fantastically unhealthy country where everyone thinks they should be able to drink, smoke and be a fat sack of **** and "because I pay my taxes" the NHS should pick up the bill. Most people don't realise how little they contribute to the system vs how much they suck out of it. Most people are not net contributors.

If we want to save the NHS we will have to start actually being pragmatic and realistic and stop the woke BS that says nothing is every your own fault and start actually penalising people for making awful health choices for years and years. Either that or it will just have to reduce its cover and only be available for certain things.

Healthcare is a black hole for money when you have an ageing, unhealthy and entitled population at a time when medical care is getting more and more expensive. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Agreed on all points regarding sense of entitlement. Thank you for making my point.

So either they cut cover, or, or, or, maybe, just maybe.... people pay more, one way or another, and maybe even do their own organising of appointments to take the burden off the medical/administrative staff. Maybe that would work? Instead of clinging to this outdated idea of "free" healthcare for all, which is a complete nonsense as of course you pay for it, through tax.

The NHS is a system, not a favourite child.

 

[Scougar]

<--- USA for 9ish years. you don't want a private (for profit) health system. Having the stress and nonsense of different levels of care, the financial nightmare of insurance suddenly deciding they don't want to pay, or withhold based on a technicality. (That 10k bill we had looked real fun when they denied part of an op because of 'third party' workers in the op room we had no control over for example). Paid for doctors/consultants that won't take your particular insurance or any insurance at all. Ambulance.... 1000+ dollars please... Hope insurance covers it.

I am in corporate world so get "good" insurance which my company pays about 3/4 of. I will have to check but mine is around 330 per 4 weeks, so my company pays around 1000 themselves each time. It may be more, I have not checked it a while.

-----

My wife has been in hospital many times here due to her health issues. Care just depends on the hospital, just like NHS. Some are good, some are bad. Just be thankful you can break some bones or have an accident and not be thinking about the potential bill.

 

[AndyT]

<--- you don't want a private (for profit) health system.

Absolutely agreed, but some of the British public and most of the political class don't seem to want to admit that there is a workable solution somewhere between the NHS and the US system, which is much closer to the NHS than the US.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

True, you have to manage some things yourself, i.e. booking of specialists, blood tests etc., but this works as it takes the burden of admin from the doctors, and leaves them free to do what they are trained and paid to do.

You do realise that our Clinicians have their own staff/Secretaries who do the Admin?
Yesterday I was told by my surgeon my operation would be in May, this morning his Secretary rang and said Feb 18th.
I said he'd told me 3 months and she just said "He knows nothing I keep his calendar"
I know for a fact all our Clinicians talk into a recorder and the Secretaries do all the Admin because I have access to the system.

 

[sHo0sH]

We are still awaiting the post-mortem results from my father's death 6 months later. We suspect he was prescribed the wrong kind of pill for his cancer treatment as when looking into them ourselves they should not have been given to anyone with heart problems. He was going to die of Cancer anyway, but he dropped dead 2 weeks after starting the new pills whilst getting some petrol.
I am a massive fan of the NHS though and it's an incredible service full of incredible people. It's just a shame they are over-stretched and over worked.

 

[fez]

Oh I don't think anyone in their right mind wants anything close to the US system. The US does so many things incorrectly despite their chest beating about being the best at everything.

Agreed on all points regarding sense of entitlement. Thank you for making my point.

So either they cut cover, or, or, or, maybe, just maybe.... people pay more, one way or another, and maybe even do their own organising of appointments to take the burden off the medical/administrative staff. Maybe that would work? Instead of clinging to this outdated idea of "free" healthcare for all, which is a complete nonsense as of course you pay for it, through tax.

The NHS is a system, not a favourite child.

The issue here is that as a country we don't seem to understand just how damned expensive healthcare is. There are drugs that cost thousands per dose and have no guarantees of success that people think should be thrown around like sweets. There are people who have lifestyle related health issues that they are treated for over decades and they never change their behaviour because its not hurting their pocket.

I don't think that its a simple case of increasing funding because that will simply be sucked up without a noticeable benefit to the consumer. Its very easy for people outside of the NHS to make judgements on these things but my partner is quite senior in the NHS and its a mess. The biggest change they probably need to make is the modernisation and consolidation of many parts of it. You can move between trusts and go from a modern, well staffed and run hospital to a place that feels like its stuck in the 80s with nurses who think they run the place and so many core issue that anyone with half a brain cell moves onto a new job within a year or simply becomes part of the dysfunctional mess.

People also need to know how much their "free care" is costing. Perhaps if people got given a breakdown of the costs of their treatment they might not be so entitled and dismissive of what they have.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

We are still awaiting the post-mortem results from my father's death 6 months later. We suspect he was prescribed the wrong kind of pill for his cancer treatment as when looking into them ourselves they should not have been given to anyone with heart problems. He was going to die of Cancer anyway, but he dropped dead 2 weeks after starting the new pills whilst getting some petrol.
I am a massive fan of the NHS though and it's an incredible service full of incredible people. It's just a shame they are over-stretched and over worked.

About two years ago we had a new Coroner and he made it clear to every Clinician that when we ask for reports they must be done within 3 weeks and if not they could be fined up to £1000.
Just remember that just like catching Covid, if your Dad was already dying he has still been robbed of a longer life.
I hope you get the report you want and take it further.

 

[Scougar]

The issue here is that as a country we don't seem to understand just how damned expensive healthcare is. There are drugs that cost thousands per dose and have no guarantees of success that people think should be thrown around like sweets. There are people who have lifestyle related health issues that they are treated for over decades and they never change their behaviour because its not hurting their pocket.

With respect... the drugs are expensive because the companies want them to be expensive. They make profit from them, MASSIVE profits. The for profit pharm/medical systems are not really interested in curing anyone, unless it got them good PR. They are their to make money. That is the root of the problem, it's for profit, and not for health and benefit of all. Are there benefits to this process? Sure. I'm certain risks were taking for things that wouldn't have normally been done.

 

[arknor]

Does anyone work for the NHS?

Is the no swearing thing at reception supposed to be entirely no swearing or only if your abusive and directing it towards staff?

The other day

I was basically having a nervous breakdown and swore casually a few times trying to get help, the woman kept interrupting me so I gave up and left.
I literally told her I was suicidal and probably having a mental breakdown, she asked me a few questions and I used profanity as an intensifier so I was not being abusive towards her.

should I complain or not worth it? do they record the audio and video of triage?

if a pregnant lady in labor swore in pain they would not tell her to stop right? so there must be exceptions surely

it was really late at night if it makes any difference..... no kids around etc, I was not drunk or angry towards anyone


I got help from my GP the next day.

 

[V F]

Oh I don't think anyone in their right mind wants anything close to the US system. The US does so many things incorrectly despite their chest beating about being the best at everything.



The issue here is that as a country we don't seem to understand just how damned expensive healthcare is. There are drugs that cost thousands per dose and have no guarantees of success that people think should be thrown around like sweets. There are people who have lifestyle related health issues that they are treated for over decades and they never change their behaviour because its not hurting their pocket.

I don't think that its a simple case of increasing funding because that will simply be sucked up without a noticeable benefit to the consumer. Its very easy for people outside of the NHS to make judgements on these things but my partner is quite senior in the NHS and its a mess. The biggest change they probably need to make is the modernisation and consolidation of many parts of it. You can move between trusts and go from a modern, well staffed and run hospital to a place that feels like its stuck in the 80s with nurses who think they run the place and so many core issue that anyone with half a brain cell moves onto a new job within a year or simply becomes part of the dysfunctional mess.

People also need to know how much their "free care" is costing. Perhaps if people got given a breakdown of the costs of their treatment they might not be so entitled and dismissive of what they have.

The politicians seem to want it regardless what they say watching their actions.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Does anyone work for the NHS?

Is the no swearing thing at reception supposed to be entirely no swearing or only if your abusive and directing it towards staff?

The other day

I was basically having a nervous breakdown and swore casually a few times trying to get help, the woman kept interrupting me so I gave up and left.
I literally told her I was suicidal and probably having a mental breakdown, she asked me a few questions and I used profanity as an intensifier so I was not being abusive towards her.

should I complain or not worth it? do they record the audio and video of triage?

if a pregnant lady in labor swore in pain they would not tell her to stop right? so there must be exceptions surely

it was really late at night if it makes any difference..... no kids around etc, I was not drunk or angry towards anyone


I got help from my GP the next day.

It's never good, anybody rings me and starts swearing the phone goes down.
I have got the CCTV from our ED Reception a few times so they probably record elsewhere.
Just remember that receptionist is on a band 2, isn't clinically knowledgeable and doesn't need your crap.

And yes, I empathise with you, it can be frustrating.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

The UK had the best ranked healthcare system in the world 5 years ago. I doubt that much has changed since then.

You are also comparing apples and oranges. The UK is a fantastically unhealthy country where everyone thinks they should be able to drink, smoke and be a fat sack of **** and "because I pay my taxes" the NHS should pick up the bill. Most people don't realise how little they contribute to the system vs how much they suck out of it. Most people are not net contributors.

If we want to save the NHS we will have to start actually being pragmatic and realistic and stop the woke BS that says nothing is every your own fault and start actually penalising people for making awful health choices for years and years. Either that or it will just have to reduce its cover and only be available for certain things.

Healthcare is a black hole for money when you have an ageing, unhealthy and entitled population at a time when medical care is getting more and more expensive. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

That isn't woke. People have been saying this for decades. It really is getting ridiculous now, just put "woke" in any situation and there is the blame Its lazy and laughable.