NHS=Negligent Health Service

tres said:
And what about the people that can't afford ibuprofen at £10 a pack?
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they can probably get it prescribed via a doctor I'd imagine if they are poor and can't afford the expense.

I don't see how the NHS can ever recover from this tbh.

probably time for means tested state medical insurance and everyone else who can afford to pay for their own insurance does.

I guess there would be cries about taxes not being lowered though and people having 2 pay twice.


how can the NHS ever clear the backlogs? the population grew massively and the NHS doesn't appear to have done the same.

I bet your city still has the same number of hospitals as it did 20 years ago and I doubt they will have added many new wings.


there's also more contracted consultants than ever? seems to have been quite common even 5-10 years ago.
I guess the idea was to get some backlog cleared but instead it's became like the preferred way for people to work who are psychologists, psychiatrists etc

why work for the NHS when you can just issue them a fat bill instead
 
It's also worth noting that the likes of the US health system, which has far, far more spent on it than the NHS*, is basically on the point of collapse due to covid in many areas, certainly I keep hearing of instances where in some cases multiple states are basically out of beds for covid patients, and people with things like heart attacks are having to be sent across multiple states to find somewhere that can treat them properly:(



*IIRC there was some study that suggested the US system wastes more on billing disputes per person than the NHS has in total funding per person
 
Werewolf said:
It's also worth noting that the likes of the US health system, which has far, far more spent on it than the NHS*, is basically on the point of collapse due to covid in many areas, certainly I keep hearing of instances where in some cases multiple states are basically out of beds for covid patients, and people with things like heart attacks are having to be sent across multiple states to find somewhere that can treat them properly:(



*IIRC there was some study that suggested the US system wastes more on billing disputes per person than the NHS has in total funding per person
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It's not a particularly fair comparison though, as the prices for drugs over there are incredulous.
 
tres said:
Opinions like this make me so sad. A privatised health service would result in millions having a lower standard of care.
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Tell that to the excellent health systems in France, Germany, Denmark etc that have extensive use of private sector organisations in their health systems. As per my previous comment, it's not whether you have private companies, it's how you use them.
 
Werewolf said:
It's also worth noting that the likes of the US health system, which has far, far more spent on it than the NHS*, is basically on the point of collapse due to covid in many areas,
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I don't know why people keep comparing the NHS to the US system. It's completely different, we'll never have a system like that.

Much better to compare with similar countries like France, Germany, Sweden etc.

The NHS gets great rankings in comparison because of its efficiency - we spend quite a bit less per head than other countries, and for the money it provides good outcomes. However, in absolute terms its not better than other European health systems. Certainly no one comes here to learn how to run a health system, because its not a good way to organise things.

Individual services can be great, as an overall health system, it could be a lot better.
 
dLockers said:
It's not a particularly fair comparison though, as the prices for drugs over there are incredulous.
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Largely because it's so heavily profit driven...
One of the key ways the NHS works is by having the medications bought in bulk so they can get a realistic price rather than say $300 for a $10 vial of insulin, or accept a company simply deciding to increase the cost of something by 10-50 times because a new company has bought it and wants to increase the profit.

There was a leak from one of their hospital groups a few weeks ago that showed how their billing system would put a purely arbitrary surcharge on drugs administered at the hospitals, it was something like randomly choosing to charge 2-3 times the (already massively inflated) price they paid, before any of the charges for administering the medication, the handling of it, or the hospital facilities.
 
Werewolf said:
Largely because it's so heavily profit driven...
One of the key ways the NHS works is by having the medications bought in bulk so they can get a realistic price rather than say $300 for a $10 vial of insulin, or accept a company simply deciding to increase the cost of something by 10-50 times because a new company has bought it and wants to increase the profit.

There was a leak from one of their hospital groups a few weeks ago that showed how their billing system would put a purely arbitrary surcharge on drugs administered at the hospitals, it was something like randomly choosing to charge 2-3 times the (already massively inflated) price they paid, before any of the charges for administering the medication, the handling of it, or the hospital facilities.
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454% i read somewhere!
 
arknor said:
they can probably get it prescribed via a doctor I'd imagine if they are poor and can't afford the expense.

I don't see how the NHS can ever recover from this tbh.

probably time for means tested state medical insurance and everyone else who can afford to pay for their own insurance does.

I guess there would be cries about taxes not being lowered though and people having 2 pay twice.


how can the NHS ever clear the backlogs? the population grew massively and the NHS doesn't appear to have done the same.

I bet your city still has the same number of hospitals as it did 20 years ago and I doubt they will have added many new wings.


there's also more contracted consultants than ever? seems to have been quite common even 5-10 years ago.
I guess the idea was to get some backlog cleared but instead it's became like the preferred way for people to work who are psychologists, psychiatrists etc

why work for the NHS when you can just issue them a fat bill instead
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It's already a means tested state medical system. You pay more tax if you earn more.
You want a two tiered medical system. And that is when a lot more people come to harm.

My local region has 1 new large tertiary hospital in the last 5 years plus building a replacement hospital due in the next 5 years.

You seem to blame everything on the NHS when the problem is those controlling and funding the NHS. That's the key, and the roadblock, to clearing the backlog. It's nothing to do with the staff.
An influx of 'management' is another reason why the NHS is struggling. Clinical staff now account for half of the NHS workforce. I appreciate you need the plethora of other support departments to make it worse, but middle management is the largest single growing department across the NHS.

Do you ever wonder WHY more and more doctors are locums rather than employed? And it's a lot more complex than money (especially after IR35 payments have been pretty much banned these days). They lose stability, training, professional development etc. The career is becoming more and more untenable for so many, it can be poorly supported, work levels are going through the roof, the UK seem unique in their ability to undermine the profession (Dr Google knows best).

Just a heads up though, do expect a junior doctor strike in the forthcoming years. I can guarantee there will be public outcry ("how dare they!") but 99% of you would never put up with the crap in your own day to day jobs (as well as a 30-40% real term reduction in pay over the last 15 years, a training pathway lasting 10+ years, self funded exams and courses, so many hoops to jump through, rotating across multiple counties during this time and making it so difficult to settle down and have a family, the risk of losing EVERYTHING after a mistake, the constant worry about thousands of variables in your day to day job, the emotional baggage of looking after people etc etc) People have this idea we do this because of the fantastic pay (i could become a plumber or Aldi manager and earn more).

If you have a problem with the NHS, focus it on where the problem is - funding, backhanded privatisation and politics. Don't listen to the Daily Mail. Don't blame the hospital doctors or GPs. Don't believe hearsay or fourth hand stories. I'm sorry if you've had a bad experience, but in the vast majority of cases, the fault lies above us.
 
CaptainRAVE said:
Years worth of backlogs. Almost impossible to see a GP. Negligence all over the place resulting in huge compensation payouts. Not enough beds resulting in people being stuck on ambulances. Hospital buildings that are falling apart with waste bins lining the corridors. World class :cry:
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We are in the middle of a world health crisis, other countries are faring far worse. Look at Italy as Covid began, their health service fell apart instantly.
 
tres said:
If you have a problem with the NHS, focus it on where the problem is - funding, backhanded privatisation and politics. Don't listen to the Daily Mail. Don't blame the hospital doctors or GPs. Don't believe hearsay or fourth hand stories. I'm sorry if you've had a bad experience, but in the vast majority of cases, the fault lies above us.
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Well said.

What I’ve never understood about people who knock a national health service, is that they don’t understand that they benefit from living in a society where everyone has access to healthcare, it’s raised society several levels across all aspects of life.

And whilst I don’t have children of my own that I care for, I am happy to pay for schools, as I am aware that society benefits from schools being a thing, and that I live in society.
 
tres said:
You seem to blame everything on the NHS when the problem is those controlling and funding the NHS.
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not really I suggested people who can afford to should be forced to get medical insurance for the betterment of everyone, which surely adds a revenue stream for the NHS thus increasing the budget

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget

the funding over the years is just pathetic though look at the numbers, still in austerity everywhere not just the NHS.
people forget that, with covid it's like double austerity something drastic surely has to be done?

get palantir or someone to plug the whole NHS and see where we can stream line logistics, get better pricing, less waste, cut out all the middle management if they aren't needed or whatever.

someone needs to almost rebuild the system from scratch and give it a complete overhaul.

it's never going to happen it's obvious privatisation is slowly being forced until it's the only option left.
I'd imagine a big issue is all the businesses that would have paid taxes got crushed by companies who avoid them as much as possible like amazon, starbucks and all the other global companies that are basically parasitic.

maybe that's the real reason we have austerity in the first place
 
Many of the problems the NHS has is due to previous attempts to "streamline" things...

Much of the current "middle management" are there because they remove the need for clinicians to try and run things (which can help, if they understand the clinical reasons for doing it one way vs another), or because the government wants every thing run to a target and that target to be fully documented.

I suspect it also hasn't helped that to try and "reduce costs" in the past many of the things that the NHS used to do in house are now outsourced, often resulting in a nice profit for various party donors whilst the staff on the ground are doing more at lower rates of pay and worse conditions.
 
ahar said:
Tell that to the excellent health systems in France, Germany, Denmark etc that have extensive use of private sector organisations in their health systems. As per my previous comment, it's not whether you have private companies, it's how you use them.
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Spain is the same if you need treatment no problem its available immediately if you're an expat and paid for by the uk govt/nhs or thats what I was told by someone who live there and they've made extensive use of it. Couple that with much lower levels of covid and they don't have a issue because people actually obey restrictions because if you don't welll you don't mess with the Guardia. Unlike here where basically all non urgent care is suspended because of and no-one wants to either impose or live with restrictions.
 
How does scrapping the NHS and bringing in a private system from another country going to free up beds, GP appointments, and cut waiting times? Surely everyone who needed treatment on the NHS still needs treatment?

Or do you mean the ones who can't afford to pay at the point of service should go over there in the corner and die?
 
I’ve had mixed experiences with the NHS, overall they have been brilliant apart from trying to kill me once - dangerously mis diagnosed cholecystitis.
I wouldn’t have children or be walking without them though.
 
LeeUK said:
How does scrapping the NHS and bringing in a private system from another country going to free up beds, GP appointments, and cut waiting times? Surely everyone who needed treatment on the NHS still needs treatment?

Or do you mean the ones who can't afford to pay at the point of service should go over there in the corner and die?
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You're confusing the way of paying for a health system with the organisations that deliver the care.

Other European countries have universal health care but different ways of paying. France for example has charges to see a GP, but if you're poor you can claim the money back. Most countries have some kind of mandatory health insurance system with provision for unemployed, students, kids, retired etc.

Then you have the organisations that deliver the care. In France for example, they have a mixture of state, non profit and for profit hospitals. However, there shouldn't be a difference in what you pay between state, non profit etc (with the exception of a few).

How would more private organisations involved help the UK? Well, it entirely depends on which organisations and how you use them. The private sector tends to be good at doing a few simple things lots of times really efficiently. It tends to be bad at complexity. The problem is that the NHS organisation may not be well set up to use the private sector in the right way. However, we can see from other countries that it can work.
 
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