Nick's little project

I have re read the whole thread. Love the design, it is wonderfully over the top.

The bit I can't get past is the choice of the Otl final stage. All that glass, all the design, then a fat lytic cap right at the output....sure I can't tempt you to go transformer coupled?

The minimum would be 5 valves (2 front end and three AI output tubes) should cover stereo. The pain is the wiring is the reason to add a 4th output but only using 1/2 the tube). I have plans.. towards differential and the. push-pull but best to get this built first and I’d like to get a DSD512 integrated too.

Also with the ecc99 that will drive a 2a3-based power stage if I want to add a pair of speakers :)

The reason for going transformerless (OTL) is to experience without a transformer, the downside is the power inefficiency - OTL is typically quoted as 1% or less, then with class A that's 40% of 1%.. hence the stereo output stage is, per channel, idling at 75mA with ±75mA swing. The headphones are 104dBV so that's probably plenty loud enough, if I used the remaining triode/channel that increases to 100mA with 100mA swing (ie 100mA*1V = 100mW = 0.1W).

The power requirements are basically the same between running a 110mA capable 6AS7 and two 60mA capable ecc99s per channel. The ecc99 is more linear and gives me more options for tinkering without the large heater current required by the 6SN7 & 6AS7s. However the main reason for multiple triodes (two per class tube) is the parallel structure reduces output impedance. Add negative feedback and you get a good damping factor.

I may be tempted by that differential parafeed but getting a good match transformer is an art/design all to itself - more than just windings, it also resistances and capacitances. I can then replace the transformer and reuse the transformer for a discrete power stage. The power transformer I had in mind would be a£32-50 230V:230V 1.7A 180VA. However good output trannies (two required) means £60-120 per transformer.

I'm also intent in exploring different topologies. This basic amp provides a basis for exploring where each stage is separate. Just replacing a stage is easy by desoldering a few wires at a point board. That way I can "top-roll" drop back in a set of valve bases with associated caps & resistors or even just hook them up with a set of alligator clips.
 
Last edited:
I wouldn't knock £60-£120 per transformer. The sowter output transformers that went in my power amps, cost more than double that each. Even the mains transformers cost a shade over £100 each. Total iron cost for my monoblocs was just under £875.

Another good point is that transformers rarely if ever go wrong. Valves on the other hand wear out over time and they can go wrong, sometimes spectacularly. (shorts and thermal runaway) I've not had any so far that have gone wrong like that but I've had a few dodgy valves with operating points that were well outside of spec. OTL does have the benefit of not having to deal with the limited frequency response and phase shifts introduced by the transformer.
 
Another good point is that transformers rarely if ever go wrong. Valves on the other hand wear out over time and they can go wrong, sometimes spectacularly. (shorts and thermal runaway) I've not had any so far that have gone wrong like that but I've had a few dodgy valves with operating points that were well outside of spec. OTL does have the benefit of not having to deal with the limited frequency response and phase shifts introduced by the transformer.

Safety is at the front of my mind.

Transformers - act as an isolation transformer as long as the windings don't short un tube/amp failure modes.

OTLs need careful design in this and then some testing too..
* startup is the same with most transformers - the surge is there and handled by mute relays normally, or tube rectifiers
* cap shorts. With a cap short - single ended and any other design typically have a circuit from B+ to ground through the headphones.
* tube shorts. Result in high voltage swings (AC) caused by high current, so regardless of output cap integrity, will output to the headphones. If the cap fails then you have a high current and therefore high voltage DC path from ground through the headphones.
* CCS failure to short. large current, AC rise causes headphone voltage spike and unlimited current to all output valves, the bias will rise and negative bias the grid but will cause tubes to fail.
* shutdown as the shutdown occurs, the grids need to be kept negative to the cathode or you will have a big current & voltage spike..
* cross section shorts (resistors/caps/wires) all should cause a short and thus blow something rather than output higher voltage.
* headphone socket short - simply discharge to ground from the output cap
* headphone disconnect/replace the caps should handle this, and there is an inbuilt resistor to ground.

An upper current limiter on the B+ as well as the CCS on the cathode, voltage crowbar on the output headphone side so anything over 2-3V would cause a blown fuse. Also B+ circuit collapse as the B+ to the valves will have relays so if the power goes, the relays drop the circuit connections - restart is via soft start again. As they say - the electronics are there to save the fuse... so the B+ fuse and mains fuses are slower than designing and having some safety features.

I'm being ultra careful, simply because a shock to the head is unlikely to have any form of response from the shocked individual.

There's an awful lot of OTL style headphone amps that don't have any protective circuits and simply rely on the mains fuse..
 
This is what I will want todo for the negative bias - this shows the input valve
vNKbg9G.png
Green B+ (no voltage regulator and only 470uF)
Red - cathode bias
Blue - headphone output
Cyan - current through the first

You can see the start up - the B+ (green) is off, and the system clamps the cathode bias to make a -30V grid bias (red). Then the B+ kicks in and then only when the grid bias is released do you see the current flow through the valve. Afterwheich you can see the cathode sine wave and the current sine wave.

You can see that the headphone has a small -2V spike but the output mute relay (not modelled) would stop that.
 
Last edited:
BKCfbCZ.png

Looking at the output stage:
Blue - headphone voltage
Green - headphone current through 32ohms
Red - is the cathode feedback into the initial stage
Pink - cathode line at output stage (before output cap)
Cyan - B+
Grey - Current across one valve. See about 0.1 seconds.. 16A spike then 2-4A for a period before dropping off.. that's not healthy!

Note that only one ecc99 is in the output stage just to make things faster.

This still needs more work around the signal and getting the correct grid for the e99. It also shows *why* a voltage regulator is needed or large smoothing caps!
 
Last edited:
This is what I will want todo for the negative bias - this shows the input valve
vNKbg9G.png
Green B+ (no voltage regulator and only 470uF)
Red - cathode bias
Blue - headphone output
Cyan - current through the first

You can see the start up - the B+ (green) is off, and the system clamps the cathode bias to make a -30V grid bias (red). Then the B+ kicks in and then only when the grid bias is released do you see the current flow through the valve. Afterwheich you can see the cathode sine wave and the current sine wave.

You can see that the headphone has a small -2V spike but the output mute relay (not modelled) would stop that.
I love your article! The content is very valuable. It shows that you spent time researching this and you have managed to turn it into an incredible piece of valuable content.
 
I did note after posting that the second has a problem - the timing on the output is wrong (easily solved) but if you look at the grey trace it (tube current) - it spikes to 2A. This would occur if not all tubes conducted at the same time (which they won’t).
So a minor correction on the timing is needed. One nice thing is putting a 1ohm resistor in series allows the current to be tested using a the voltage across it. It can then be shown on a voltage meter for example.
A voltage could then be used to set the lower CCS current limit.. something for a later date perhaps.

Today’s goal, once the chores are out of the way, is to finalise the signal path and design ready for the first ordering.
 
Inrush current limiter set up on the mains AC side of the transformer.

uLa3e6U.png

A simple 10ohm resistor with a time delay bypass switch (blue is the trigger to bypass at 0.2 seconds).

You can see instead of a large 50+ amp inrush current (green) the inrush is smoothed over a short period but limited to about 5-8 Amps. The poor 10ohm resistor gets a 600W impulse on the first AC cycle. I can smooth further but this simulates a thermistor in a very basic way.
 
Last edited:
So.. from the same run.. let's look at current. Although the final signal currents and voltages are not configured this looks promising as the same concept is valid:

Internal currents across the valves.
pCi6SFl.png

You can see the switching lines for the different startup stages - there is a big 3.16V peak-to-peak sine wave on the input from the start.
* not shown is the 0.2 mains trigger to bypass shown above.
* 0.5s (cyan) = B+ start
* 0.7s (pink) = clamp switches off, the blue pre-section tube current and green output stage current raise to idle current (operating class A bias always has current flowing through the device - this is what makes the class A 'hot'). You can also see a slight movement in the blue as the negative feedback returning to the input section starts to cause it react.
* 1.0s (red) = headphone mute switches off what which point you can see the green output currents rise as it pulls & pushes current through the headphone. Also the input section current (blue) causes changes to occur as the output section starts driving the headphones.

Note that there's no 1A spikes..

Now let's see what the headphone current overlaid on to that (grey):
Y13al09.png
No big current spikes :D

And let's have a look at the voltages.
jZ7VoSK.png
Not sure this is quite as rosy..
* switch signals are the small 5V signals at the bottom.
* 0.5s B+ start, the green B+ rectified voltage goes to 270V which is correct. The blue which is the valve anode voltage initially starts perfect but then takes a nose dive followed by spiking between the cathode and intended anode voltage.
* 0.7s the bias clamp switches off and as the currents start flowing the matt green (output cathodes) and grey lines (input cathodes) start up.
* 1.0s the headphone mute disables and the amp appears initially stable for about 100ms.. before the B+ issues starts to cause impact.

So what does the headphone see?
In gold overlaid is the voltage that the headphones now see.
NJMjJba.png

Phew.. so although there's a problem - the headphones simply see no voltage spikes output normal working voltages.

Now.. what causes that problem - I suspect is the current limiter not being right which I've added at the top of the output valves to prevent a unhindered flow from the headphones to the B+ line in case of shorts or tube failure.

Looking at the output CCS, the current limiter and the output capacitor you can piece together what is happening:
vQAvEdr.png

* 0.5 B+ start - the B+ rail in red is steady.
* 0.7 the cathode clamp stops and the tubes are free,
1. you can see the lower CCS (pink) takes a hit and then provides 75mA sustained idle current.
2. you can see the blue anode voltage of the output tube then takes a complete dive.
Voltage = current * resistance.
So this looks like the current is now flowing through a different path and so incurs a different resistance. Given the cathode voltage (cyan) increases this is likely that it's pilling through

The current through the valve at this stage begins to climb, as it conducts. As the valve is less resistance we have our change in resistance.

The valve (actually this would be all three but I only have on in there) is now conducting all the 75mA idle current that is being limited by the lower CCS. This is normal (the normal idle current per valve would actually be 25mA).
Unlike an anode follower.. we're not following the voltage to to make the sound for the headphones.. we're using the cathode and it's current flow however we need a voltage across the tube for it to remain stable.

So what is causing it? Well V=IR the relationship sort of points to current.. or the controlling of the current. The lower CCS is fine, it's working and doing it's job. The upper CCS is limiting the current flow. However when the resistance falls then there is no extra current to compensate and the voltage drops. Although the output cap has energy to provide current, there's no outlet.. or resistance to cause it.

* 1.0s headphone mute disable
Now the system finds the resistance on the other side of the output cap changes from 10,000 ohms to 32.. although DC current doesn't flow, AC currents do.. thus you see a increase in the currents flowing through which causes an oscillation in the blue valve anode response.. that finally dies out at about 1.4 seconds.
The current through the valve anode (green) shows this..

I think part of this is down to not having the final signals voltages (ie grid voltages setup) thus larger currents are allowed but.. this also points to the fact, at the moment, the use of an upper CCS rather than perhaps a more traditional current limiter is causing an issue.

V=IR.

If less current flows through the valve we see less anode voltage.
If the valve conducts more (or paths present a lower resistance) then resistance drops. Then we see less anode voltage.

An upper CCS that is being triggered into limiting (and assumes the model is not magically creating current) would cause (a) higher resistance and (b) less current.. the tube sat behind it.. would then see a limit to the current, it's own resistance would drop and the voltage would drop.

So it's good that it's seen it has a positive safety effect.. but I need to design it so it only starts infringing when it needs to limit. The current input signal is a 3.16V peak signal (I said peak-to-peak earlier but that's incorrect) which is +20% dbV for consumer line-in. This is deliberate to ensure the amp has headroom to cope with big transients such as cymbals or electronica without compressing the signal. A normal signal on a consumer system should be 0.447V peak.
 
Going to the big full model
* both channels operating sharing a common set of B+ rails, a single power supply transformer, voltage regulation on both B+ rails.
* full compliment of valves (ie two triodes and three output triodes per channel).
* 0.2s soft start second before it's bypassed
* 1s output mute disabled
* No cathode biasing and no upper current limiter.

49YdC7J.png

Starting from the bottom
* green = input triode current (this is the one that takes the signal)
* blue = current through input triode common cathode that provides the amplified output and the grid is where the negative feedback is presented.
* red = current through one of the output triodes (multiply by 3 to get total output current flowing)
* cyan = input cathode voltage
* grey = output cathode voltage (ie between output tubes and the output cap)
* pink B+ voltage

Not bad. The model is slow.. only 4 seconds of operation but it's enough to get a good understanding.

The common spike/dip at 1.0 second is the mute switching the headphones on.

What is clear is that the headphone mute needs longer before it's disengaged, the voltage regulator is still starting up (it has a soft start itself). I suspect the amp will need 10-30 seconds to be fully stable before disengaging the headphone mute override.

Next - sort the voltages for the B+, signal and sort out the damn voltage regulator model..

Just to show the headphone output - looking promising but that 6.3V 200mA spike on de-mute needs to go!
kHVMgyv.png
 
Last edited:
So.. On the signals.

It turns out that when muted, the output section behaved itself but soon as mute was lifted the current path - headphone > output amp > B+ caused it to go ape, as I suspected.

I've also been playing with the top CCS - it's very very sensitive. Too much and resistance and it switches off. However it appears I've found a good middle ground (9.6 ohm, yes the tenth of ohms is all important):

XeJGWEb.png

So you can see the mute disable. Then the CCS keeps the system in check from drawing too much current through the headphones.

An added benefit is that the CCS means I can drop the B+ directly from the 200V line rather than having a separate 150V line. So reducing complexity!

Still got a little more way to go on the signal configuration but I'm happy I have found a solution. Only concern is it's sensitivity vs resistor 5-10% tolerances that change over temperature too!

Just checked the wave form.. poop!

UBkThqD.png

That pulsing is caused by the CCS. Back to the drawing board.
 
Last edited:
First rule.. strip back when you find a problem.
* removed CCS and regulators, switches and anything else. Replacing the CCS with good old resistors has solved the problem but has allowed the system to wildly oscillate - probably the CCS was the only thing keeping it in check.
* cut the negative feedback, thus allowing a bias to be setup. The system has stopped oscillating and allows me to properly set the system levels up.
* then once it's working nicely.. I'll start adding bits back in.
 
The original design had some pretty tight voltage swing 'tolerances'. So the output of the 12AU7 was a mere 2V peak but at few volts of negative bias. The 12BH7 is a stronger beast so it upsets the applecart.

The final teaching of a valve amp is like solving simultaneous equations - the instability was caused by the biases and the voltage swing causing the the output valves to cut and start, cut and start, the negative feedback then caused the front to oscillate in a cut and start in sympathy. It was bad that even setting a zero source input (ie no signal) caused it to oscillate. Positive swings on the grid didn't help.

However once you have a rough understanding of the voltage swing from the 12BH7s, the current allowing a much more forceful swing thus you see a good 20Vp-p. The ecc99 then needs to be rebiased, so that it's grids never go positive and the valves always remain in their output safety zones.

At the headphone:
OXcN7PX.png

Not bad output, just a quick run FFT but it's showing promise.
PN0VuRp.png

This is at full volume and pelting about 220mW. With 3.16V peak input 10KHz sine wave simulating a full headroom +20dbV transient. Note - this is using a voltage source not the rectified signal (hence it's quiet).

So in normal playing the output would be far quieter.

This is looking good for a bill of materials ;)

Next is sorting out the voltage regulator - I may take you up on your salis regulator, but just need to look into it. From that it really defines the power requirements from the transformer.

The nice thing is the system is now running on 200V throughout without CCS or regulator. So I hope that they just add the icing on the cake.
 
447mV results are good.

si8w2sJ.png

The only issue is that perceived volume is a logarithmic scale, so this is probably way too quiet :D Valves are no logarithmic output, unless the volume plays with the feedback and caused it to increase the gain (amplification) as well as the volume (size of signal). This is current poking out about 4.5mW at the headphones.

The nice thing is the system has some leeway to adjust the bias to increase the output. So I'm not done just yet.
 
Just looking at the voltage regulators (the LT3080 Maida) seems like it's working nicely. This is the first run - it takes 36 seconds for it's soft start!
aQTctGr.png
Unloaded, the ripple at the top is 9.2mV peak-to-peak.
vPO1JoP.png

This small regulator-only ~40sec run size is 20GB of data.

So next is to have these settings setup in the big model with the timings setup so the mute is switched off after a minute. I will need to reduce the amount of recorded information and then let it run for hours.

I'm getting 9000uV (9mV) ripple but the real world voltage regulator does 20uV. However it will do for an initial run.
 
Last edited:
So.. 60 second run (over running for a an hour+ realtime) - this is a stereo run but only saving a small number of points on the circuit - 9.72GB!

This has no CCS, just the main 200V regulator. It's also performing the 3.16V peak transient

Headphone seems decent
RDWZh7h.png
You can see the headphone mute - now set to 40 seconds, as the voltage regulator takes 36 seconds to warm up.

However the current in the output section current flow shows:
QAzA15v.png
* green = combined bottom current flow (where the old CCS was)
* red = combined upper current above the valves.

The valves should be idling at a combined 75mA and each valve has a max of 60mA, so 180mA combined max at the top is acceptable. The output is a little high but solvable (230mA vs 180mA) so this is looking good as a starting point for the amp. I can actually add another triode (the real life version of this will use two tubes - each with two triodes - per channel) which would add another 60mA, so 4x*25mA=100mA idle and 4x60mA= 240mA peak).

Doh - just noted that thus doesn't look right and next run in progress (overwrites). The PSU is really noisy.. hence the full wave rectification of 50Hz mains = 100Hz..

XI0VFco.png

Ok.. next run a 447mV run to compare... zzzz....
 
Last edited:
Initial results at 447mV

p1Hp6TH.png

and flow of current top and bottom of output tubes.
mIJgceG.png
So as suspected, I think there will need to be a little real-world adjustment potential (variable resistors etc). However I'm happy with that.

This run I added a 1ohm resistor in the mains line to allow the current to be recorded:

pzPHUCp.png

I don't know the power factor (until you have a transformer in mind that's pure conjecture). However 4A*230V is extremely high. And I'm not sure if I'm calculating that right.. it's more like 180W from basic DC power current measurements.

Continuous power rating: 120VA
Primary: 2 x 0-115V @ 50/60Hz
Secondary: 230V @ 0.52A rms
Dimensions: approx 91x55mm
Mounting: mounting kit

If I put this as the B+ supply, this would provide on the edge current demands for both channels - I may simply use another that I found which can provide 1.7A at 230V, which would probably drive the heaters too.

Also I may be inclined to add a second, 15V, high current supply for the heaters and to provide a 5V line for any logic level (ie the digital DSD512 later). For now I could run this off a switched mode power supply (it would need a filter) external to the box for now.

Just need to think through the transformers.
 
Last edited:
Noisy PS is noisy...

447mV 10KHz signal
8yIJKdG.png

So that's -12dB signal - so half is -3dB so -12dB is half of a half of a half of a half.

If you have a 104dBV headset it means at 1V it's 104dB .. so deafening. So we would be probably listening at 60-80dB. So ±400mV or 0.4V (-12dB) is probably not too far away from comfortable listening.. we'll have to see :D

For reference 120dB would cause serious hearing damage (ie you'd be deaf). So most people' limit of hearing is -100-120dB. So a clean noise floor at -140dB would appear dark without hiss etc.

So sorting out the PS would be very good. I may just use this for an initial regulator for the PS.


Edit: So I've replaced the voltage regulator with a 3rd order RC lowpass filter set for about 1Hz (300ohm and 470uF repeated in a chain 3x). This is providing a much cleaner voltage output - at a cost. The voltage drops from 200 to 150V. So the transformer has been step up to bring the voltage back up to 200V B+. Naturally that's quite a bit of heat being generated!
 
Last edited:
Removed the regulator and added the three lowpass filters (RC) - this is the output from the cathode line (the headphone mute has not disabled yet). I have the left channel signal set at 447mV 10Khz and the right channel signal set to 447mV 1Khz to trace crosstalk. I also added a 1Hz RC filter between input and output tubes sections for each channel.
ec0mFMU.png

And the B+ line noise:
ec0mFMU.png

You can see from both of the FFTs above that there is cross talk through the shared B+ line so I will need to put a filter/decoupling cap between the PS and each of the channels. The above shows - <1Hz is the pass through from the LC filter. The 1Khz right signal+harmonics and the 10Khz left signal+harmonics. So we should really have some smaller filters in place to cull this (smaller uF and smaller resistors = cheaper).
DC on these plots are acceptable as they're before the output cap and headphones.

The simple 470uF with resistor seems to work nicely. (400V 470uF caps are £5 each so trying not to use them in the correct positions).

So I'm happy with this performance so far. Sometimes the old methods work best. I can now look at refining the filters and reduce some of the voltage drop.

I still (now) need to look at the bias, as there's a little current spike early on during startup and look at inrush given the capacitance is higher.

A regulator at a later date would probably improve this further.. but a regulator board at 10x the cost (ordering board from the US rather than building my own).
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom