Nurse arrested for murdering babies

Kenai said:
Someone being very cynical about the whole thing might think they cherry picked which deaths were to be considered 'involved' so as to make them all align to a pattern where one person was on shift.
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Dis86 said:
Almost as if they wanted to scapegoat someone for larger/systematic failings?
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She'd have had to have the world's dumbest lawyer to allow that to happen.

Bawa-Garba was systemic failure, this number of deaths is really not in keeping with that theory.
 
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Minstadave said:
Whilst the risks are obviously higher for babies on NICU compared to term and near term babies deaths are very rare on a level 2 NICU. I'm a level 2 NICU consultant in a substantially busier NICU than CoC and we might have 1 or 2 deaths on the unit a year at most. Deaths usually occur either at birth or in babies that are transferred out as they deteriorate, which is why the deaths at CoC on their NICU were so odd.

Edit - just looked, just over 1 a year on average.
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You are confusing me somewhat, maybe you can clarify, but my understanding (and I've been under this apprehension for many years now) is that there are 3 levels of Neonatal care, but only level 3 is an NICU..

Level 1 is SCBU - Warm, feed, open cot short term care (24 hours)
Level 2 is LNU - Drip feeding, Respiratory assistance etc, around 48 hours of care.
Level 3 is NICU - The only actual 'Intensive Care Unit'

I presume that there is some overlap, i.e. a Level 3 NICU could have course provide L1/L2 care.

Thekwango said:
it almost like some people think that because a baby is in NICU that it must be on deaths door, rather than it being (in some cases) a preventative measure to ensure the child remains healthy.
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Not true, as above, the confusion seems to be lumping Level 1 and 2 "units" with the actual intensive care units (Level 3).. My stats for NICU (1.2% to as high as 8%) mortality rates are not indicative of thinking every baby in an NICU is on deaths door, but more as by my point that the admittance to an actual 'ICU' just means the risk has increased to a point that calling them 'healthy' is a bit of a stretch.

Anyway, I can see some of my ignorance in I haven't followed the case that closely to realise Letsby was not working in an actual level 3 NICU so my point was rather moot anyway..
 
Demon said:
You are confusing me somewhat, maybe you can clarify, but my understanding (and I've been under this apprehension for many years now) is that there are 3 levels of Neonatal care, but only level 3 is an NICU..

Level 1 is SCBU - Warm, feed, open cot short term care (24 hours)
Level 2 is LNU - Drip feeding, Respiratory assistance etc, around 48 hours of care.
Level 3 is NICU - The only actual 'Intensive Care Unit'

I presume that there is some overlap, i.e. a Level 3 NICU could have course provide L1/L2 care.


Not true, as above, the confusion seems to be lumping Level 1 and 2 "units" with the actual intensive care units (Level 3).. My stats for NICU (1.2% to as high as 8%) mortality rates are not indicative of thinking every baby in an NICU is on deaths door, but more as by my point that the admittance to an actual 'ICU' just means the risk has increased to a point that calling them 'healthy' is a bit of a stretch.

Anyway, I can see some of my ignorance in I haven't followed the case that closely to realise Letsby was not working in an actual level 3 NICU so my point was rather moot anyway..
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Your definitions are broadly correct but there's wiggle room as always.

Level 1 SCBU - feeders and growers

Level 2 LNU but usually termed NICUs - provides intensive care, usually single system support (ventilation or cardiac) and will discuss at 48hrs with a tertiary centre but many will continue well beyond that, variable gestation limits, we do 27 weeks and up and go well beyond 48hrs intensive care/provide palliative care etc

Level 3 NICU - can be surgical or non-surgical, provides intensive care to all gestations/complex congenital abnormalities and cooling.

There's talk about level 2 being split into level 2 and level 2+ as there's a lot of variability as to what those units will manage.

Ontop of all that every level unit has to provide short term intensive care to a high level as babies are inconsiderate and pop out wherever they fancy.
 
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Minstadave said:
She'd have had to have the world's dumbest lawyer to allow that to happen.

Bawa-Garba was systemic failure, this number of deaths is really not in keeping with that theory.
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I can't imagine, given what she was accused of, that loads were jumping to defend her! From what I've read about the case they don't sound the best though. The questions being asked are coming from people who have had a chance to go through the evidence, transcripts and summary and are seeing flaws and counter arguments that weren't highlighted during the trial.
 
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