Nursery Worker admits sex abuse

DreadNiK · 2 Oct 2009 at 12:51

I may get vilified here for saying this, so I'll add my disclaimer - they are sick and twisted. However:

I haven't really read a whole lot on this but weren't they abusing like REALLY young children, so young they probably a) don't really have a clue what happened and b) won't remember it as they are too young? (obviously it still may well have a subconcious effect if so)...if so, then I view it as a little less bad than if it had been say a bunch of 10 year olds...

Either way, they should still go to jail for quite a while (or maybe an institution). However given my above argument, I find that calling for them to be 'skinned and rolled in salt' a little harsh - and I'm (morally, not necessarily practically) pro corporal and capital punishment and wouldn't be too bothered if these people were executed...but I wouldn't call for such extreme torture (I'd reserve skinning and rolling in salt for someone like Fritzl)

Fenris · 2 Oct 2009 at 12:53

DreadNiK said:
I haven't really read a whole lot on this but weren't they abusing like REALLY young children, so young they probably a) don't really have a clue what happened and b) won't remember it as they are too young? (obviously it still may well have a subconcious effect if so)...if so, then I view it as a little less bad than if it had been say a bunch of 10 year olds...

You have got to be ****ing joking.

They are in a position of power, theya re adults and responsible for the care, the wellbeing and the safety of these defenseless children, they abused not only these children but the trust they have been given, the trust of parents and the trust of everyone who allowed them to work with children.

Abuse of children, ESPECIALY at such a young age, is unforgivable.

knip · 2 Oct 2009 at 12:54

DreadNiK said:
I may get vilified here for saying this, so I'll add my disclaimer - they are sick and twisted. However:

I haven't really read a whole lot on this but weren't they abusing like REALLY young children, so young they probably a) don't really have a clue what happened and b) won't remember it as they are too young? (obviously it still may well have a subconcious effect if so)...if so, then I view it as a little less bad than if it had been say a bunch of 10 year olds...

Either way, they should still go to jail for quite a while (or maybe an institution). However given my above argument, I find that calling for them to be 'skinned and rolled in salt' a little harsh - and I'm (morally, not necessarily practically) pro corporal and capital punishment and wouldn't be too bothered if these people were executed...but I wouldn't call for such extreme torture (I'd reserve skinning and rolling in salt for someone like Fritzl)

Sorry but there is no excuse, no excuse or any circumstances where we might say "oh well it could have been worse" They may also be damaged in a physical way which could cause problems for years to come, or may not be revealed until they reach adulthood, whenever they did it, its still wrong and disgusting, and while they may not be showing any outward signs of issues due to what happened to them, you can be sure there will be problems.

antijoke · 2 Oct 2009 at 12:58

DreadNiK said:
I may get vilified here for saying this, so I'll add my disclaimer - they are sick and twisted. However:

I haven't really read a whole lot on this but weren't they abusing like REALLY young children, so young they probably a) don't really have a clue what happened and b) won't remember it as they are too young? (obviously it still may well have a subconcious effect if so)...if so, then I view it as a little less bad than if it had been say a bunch of 10 year olds...

Either way, they should still go to jail for quite a while (or maybe an institution). However given my above argument, I find that calling for them to be 'skinned and rolled in salt' a little harsh - and I'm (morally, not necessarily practically) pro corporal and capital punishment and wouldn't be too bothered if these people were executed...but I wouldn't call for such extreme torture (I'd reserve skinning and rolling in salt for someone like Fritzl)

Fenris said:
You have got to be ****ing joking.

They are in a position of power, theya re adults and responsible for the care, the wellbeing and the safety of these defenseless children, they abused not only these children but the trust they have been given, the trust of parents and the trust of everyone who allowed them to work with children.

Abuse of children, ESPECIALY at such a young age, is unforgivable.

Couldn't say it any better myself.

The Mad Rapper · 2 Oct 2009 at 12:59

How tragic. Those poor children! How awful for the parents as well to not know if or how their child was abused

wordy · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:02

DreadNiK said:
I may get vilified here

Agreed, you will.

DreadNiK · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:04

Fenris said:
You have got to be ****ing joking.

No, I wasn't joking, I was expressing my thoughts on the matter.

Fenris said:
They are in a position of power, theya re adults and responsible for the care, the wellbeing and the safety of these defenseless children, they abused not only these children but the trust they have been given, the trust of parents and the trust of everyone who allowed them to work with children.

Certainly not disputing this.

Fenris said:
Abuse of children, ESPECIALY at such a young age, is unforgivable.

why especially? If you are talking in terms of motive etc then fine, but in terms of consequence I'm just curious as to the actual evidence that presumably exists in the form of psychological/psychiatric case studies

knip said:
Sorry but there is no excuse, no excuse or any circumstances where we might say "oh well it could have been worse" They may also be damaged in a physical way which could cause problems for years to come, or may not be revealed until they reach adulthood, whenever they did it, its still wrong and disgusting, and while they may not be showing any outward signs of issues due to what happened to them, you can be sure there will be problems.

Again, do you or are you able to substantiate this - I find it perfectly plausible that what you are saying is correct and have very little knowledge on the matter, but what I am saying is I do not remember anything prior to about age 3 (maybe really faint rememberings of rememberings of rememberings of snatches of moments I didn't really understand), so if I myself had been abused as a child (pretty certain I wasn't) before that age I'm can't see how it would actually have been that bad (again, I don't know if/how it might affect the subconcious/psyche). I don't really want to start thinking about what kind of abuse actually took place and debating the level of pain and physical harm that was caused, because it is quite disturbing to think about.

While I am *suggesting* that the extremely young ages of those involved actually means less harm done than if it were older children, I find it MORE disturbing that it is younger children, partly because it is just so incomprehensible (not that I'm sympathising with people who abuse older children but the older the child the more you can at least start to comprehend the mind of the abuser).

Again - I am just putting forward a suggestion. By all means call for their deaths. Also, I'm curious as to who else agrees with the 'skinning and rolling in salt' quote?

DreadNiK · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:04

wordy said:
Agreed, you will.

well that's useful

Hitman_Leon · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:09

Execute,

platypus · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:11

DreadNiK said:
I may get vilified here for saying this, so I'll add my disclaimer - they are sick and twisted. However:

I haven't really read a whole lot on this but weren't they abusing like REALLY young children, so young they probably a) don't really have a clue what happened and b) won't remember it as they are too young? (obviously it still may well have a subconcious effect if so)...if so, then I view it as a little less bad than if it had been say a bunch of 10 year olds...

I know what you're saying, and I understand the point of view. There is at least the faint hope that they will be too young to remember what has happened.

knip · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:17

DreadNiK said:
Again, do you or are you able to substantiate this - I find it perfectly plausible that what you are saying is correct and have very little knowledge on the matter, but what I am saying is I do not remember anything prior to about age 3

I have a close friend who when she was in her 30's started having counselling about the abuse that had happened to her in her teens, when she underwent a special type of the counselling involving hynosis, it turned out her father had been raping her, along with her uncle and her paternal grandfather from the age of just 18 months, (I dont know the details of how this age came about because I just let her tell me what she wanted to, and didnt press her for details) so it can come back and haunt you. She also miscarried 3 babies because of her internal injuries (her womb wasnt able to cope) and finally ended up having a child which doctors said was a miracle.

arknor · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:17

Greebo said:
Do you not get parole in child sex abuse cases? Just asking out of interest as I am unaware of the situation.

the husband of a woman i know through a friend abused his own kids and got 6months in prison :rolleyes:

he had already served half of that so was out again within 3 months of beeing sentenced the justice system in this country is a joke

drunkenmaster · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:23

The after effects are rather unquantifyable, take 2 20 year old women who get raped, one might live in 10 years of agonising depression unable to cope before commiting suicide, the other may deal with it very well, talk it out with a therapist, not let it effect their live and rarely if ever think about it after a couple years and live a normal life.

THe after effects are unquantifyable, the crime itself, was the same, it doesn't matter if the kids remember, or are effected or not, the crime, is the same, and disgusting, rape/abuse of anyone any edge is a disgusting crime.

I find it weird when people talk about murder of younger people being worse, because they might do so much more with their lives, likewise a 70yr old may have lived on to 100 and cured cancer in the process, while a 12yr old killed may have died at 13yrs old anyway.

You can't, ever, based punishment on what MIGHT happen to the victims tbh, unless its an assault obviously and someones in a coma close to death, it could become murder, but failing that, you punish the crime not what might happen after.

DreadNiK · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:23

knip said:
I have a close friend who when she was in her 30's started having counselling about the abuse that had happened to her in her teens, when she underwent a special type of the counselling involving hynosis, it turned out her father had been raping her, along with her uncle and her paternal grandfather from the age of just 18 months, (I dont know the details of how this age came about because I just let her tell me what she wanted to, and didnt press her for details) so it can come back and haunt you. She also miscarried 3 babies because of her internal injuries (her womb wasnt able to cope) and finally ended up having a child which doctors said was a miracle.

No offense intended to you and your friend, but I am very sceptical about 'hypnosis' in general, let alone as a means of therapy. I've seen little to no scientific evidence that hypnosis actually exists/works.

Thanks for the info but I was looking for a little more than anecdotal 'evidence' (though it may well be hard to get much more than that on this subject I guess)

Von Smallhausen · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:23

I haven't really read a whole lot on this but weren't they abusing like REALLY young children, so young they probably a) don't really have a clue what happened and b) won't remember it as they are too young? (obviously it still may well have a subconcious effect if so)...if so, then I view it as a little less bad than if it had been say a bunch of 10 year olds...

It is as bad or worse. They chose the youngest children who couldn't speak out, who cannot give evidence in court and who are the most innocent and trusting of adults who should protect them. They knew exactly what they were doing.

Vonhelmet · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:25

Wheee, here we go.

Marv said:
I love hitmen. No matter what you do to them, you don't feel bad.

Substitute paedophiles for hitmen, and you have the expected trajectory of this thread.

My thoughts:

1) These are pretty horrible crimes.
2) No crime is unforgivable. Anyone saying that doesn't understand forgiveness.
3) Forgiveness does not supplant justice. They should be put away for a long time for this.
4) Depending on their age, the kids almost certainly won't remember what happened, and that's a very good thing.

Von Smallhausen · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:26

Greebo said:
Do you not get parole in child sex abuse cases? Just asking out of interest as I am unaware of the situation.

They do but they have to convince a parole board and also psychiatric assesments as to their suitability for release.

I don't see how they can do that in 5 years given the utter depravity of their actions and the breach of trust that went with it.

DreadNiK · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:26

drunkenmaster said:
The after effects are rather unquantifyable, take 2 20 year old women who get raped, one might live in 10 years of agonising depression unable to cope before commiting suicide, the other may deal with it very well, talk it out with a therapist, not let it effect their live and rarely if ever think about it after a couple years and live a normal life.

THe after effects are unquantifyable, the crime itself, was the same, it doesn't matter if the kids remember, or are effected or not, the crime, is the same, and disgusting, rape/abuse of anyone any edge is a disgusting crime.

I find it weird when people talk about murder of younger people being worse, because they might do so much more with their lives, likewise a 70yr old may have lived on to 100 and cured cancer in the process, while a 12yr old killed may have died at 13yrs old anyway.

You can't, ever, based punishment on what MIGHT happen to the victims tbh, unless its an assault obviously and someones in a coma close to death, it could become murder, but failing that, you punish the crime not what might happen after.

Are you just pulling ideas out of your ass? (no offence) or can you support your assertions as to the possible effects.

Also, I may have been unclear - I'm not really suggesting that my argument should in any way be about the punishment for this sickening crime, unless you believe punishment should be based (totally or partially) on the consequences/harm of the action. (which is not unreasonable).

DreadNiK · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:28

Von Smallhausen said:
It is as bad or worse. They chose the youngest children who couldn't speak out, who cannot give evidence in court and who are the most innocent and trusting of adults who should protect them. They knew exactly what they were doing.

please address the point of my post

in terms of the committers of the abuse, yes, I agree with you...I am talking about the consequences - the harm actually done...

Also the reason I am pursuing this slight derailment is because I think it might actually have more usefulness than just BAWWing about how terrible it is...

mrk · 2 Oct 2009 at 13:28

Greebo said:
Just googled it. 12 years is the maximum the judge can give them. That's not long enough for the lifetime of trauma they have given those young children.

And I am right. The guidelines state that the judge has to reduce by up to a third (depending on when they pleaded guilty). I hope he ignores those guidelines.

As bad as it sounds the toddlers won't grow up with a twitch in their eye for the rest of their lives because they won't remember what happened, however if the parents later tell them when they're older they may develop related conditions depending on their then emotional state and what kind of person they are.

Some people are saying give them (the perps) death and an article said the parents wanted them to be "skinned and rolled in salt" (!) but such harsh penalties don't solve crime, look at countries that have death penalties and lack of human rights for criminals in jails with harsh conditions etc, those contries still have crime of various levels of crazyness.

As one comment on a news site said, they should be made to work for society for the rest of their lives if not left in jail.