Nursery Worker admits sex abuse

[Von Smallhausen]

please address the point of my post

in terms of the committers of the abuse, yes, I agree with you...I am talking about the consequences - the harm actually done...

Perhaps your version of consequence and harm done differs from mine and your seems to be limited to the children themselves.

What about the parents and family who don't know if their child has been abused and the associated problems that may cause ?

What about the harm done to the industry of child minding itself ? Parents may not trust anyone with their children again.

Harm and consequence goes beyond the victims themselves.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Are you just pulling ideas out of your ass? (no offence) or can you support your assertions as to the possible effects.

Also, I may have been unclear - I'm not really suggesting that my argument should in any way be about the punishment for this sickening crime, unless you believe punishment should be based (totally or partially) on the consequences/harm of the action. (which is not unreasonable).

Errm, I think I made it pretty clear that unless you wait until whoever they harm's lives finish, you can't know the consequences at all, ever. They need to be in jail now, we won't know if the kids remember or are effected by it in any way for decades, you can't ever punish more or less badly based on the eventual effect to the victim because, shockingly we can't see the future.

The only thing you can punish, is the crime, nothing more or less.

You're first post was dedicated to the idea maybe its not as bad a crime because they won't remember. This is just flat out wrong, the crime is the same, the eventual life long consequences to the victims may prove to be less severe than if the crime was commited against a 10 or 50 yr old, however we don't and can't know that.

Hence we punish the crime, and sometimes the consequences that happen shortly after that can be known before the trial. IE if a rape victim killed themselves before the persons trial came up, it could certainly effect the outcome. But the possibility a victim MIGHT commit suicide as a direct result of the rape at a later date that hasn't happened yet, isn't taken into account.

 

[dirtydog]

And I am right. The guidelines state that the judge has to reduce by up to a third (depending on when they pleaded guilty). I hope he ignores those guidelines.

He can't ignore it AFAIK.

Either way, they should still go to jail for quite a while (or maybe an institution). However given my above argument, I find that calling for them to be 'skinned and rolled in salt' a little harsh

I agree, it is the voice of the savage mob unfortunately which you always get at times like these.

 

[MonkeyNews]

It totally sickens me even to think about this story and those poor parents of the kids at the nursery, hate to see evil and sickness of this calibre exists.

The only positive out of this is they will get their real punishment when they are in prison, I would be surprised if any of them make it out alive, as even amongst the scumbag cons they see paedos as the true scum of the Earth.

 

[drunkenmaster]

I have a close friend who when she was in her 30's started having counselling about the abuse that had happened to her in her teens, when she underwent a special type of the counselling involving hynosis, it turned out her father had been raping her, along with her uncle and her paternal grandfather from the age of just 18 months, (I dont know the details of how this age came about because I just let her tell me what she wanted to, and didnt press her for details) so it can come back and haunt you. She also miscarried 3 babies because of her internal injuries (her womb wasnt able to cope) and finally ended up having a child which doctors said was a miracle.

This is an incredibly dangerous thing to do, people can completely and utterly misinterpet memorys, they can remember dreams or simply have their subconcious mind make things up, change identities and the likes. People can have therapy under hypnosis and convince themselves things happened that never actually did.

I'm not at all suggesting she didn't have those things happen, but in many cases you can come out with a destroyed life based on events that never happened.

Its even possible a lazy or greedy therapist could make suggestions while you're under to convince you something horrible happened so you need more help.

 

[knip]

This is an incredibly dangerous thing to do, people can completely and utterly misinterpet memorys, they can remember dreams or simply have their subconcious mind make things up, change identities and the likes. People can have therapy under hypnosis and convince themselves things happened that never actually did.

I'm not at all suggesting she didn't have those things happen, but in many cases you can come out with a destroyed life based on events that never happened.

Its even possible a lazy or greedy therapist could make suggestions while you're under to convince you something horrible happened so you need more help.

When she confronted her father (the other relatives are dead) he admitted she had probably been that old, she decided not to take him to court because she felt she had already been through enough. She has also had a very successful life in spite of everything that has happened to her.

 

[drunkenmaster]

When she confronted her father (the other relatives are dead) he admitted she had probably been that old, she decided not to take him to court because she felt she had already been through enough. She has also had a very successful life in spite of everything that has happened to her.

Thats lucky in so much as he admitted it, if he hadn't she'd have been left wondering if it ever happened, if she'd gone crazy, if he was just lying, etc, etc. Could have made her mother/rest of family think she was crazy as they believe the father, any many of bad things can happen.

But theres also situations where its simply not true, the father would have denied it and all the same consequences happen. We're so bad with understanding our subconcious its just a really bad idea generally to go poking around AND taking everything at face value.

 

[knip]

Thats lucky in so much as he admitted it, if he hadn't she'd have been left wondering if it ever happened, if she'd gone crazy, if he was just lying, etc, etc. Could have made her mother/rest of family think she was crazy as they believe the father, any many of bad things can happen.

But theres also situations where its simply not true, the father would have denied it and all the same consequences happen. We're so bad with understanding our subconcious its just a really bad idea generally to go poking around AND taking everything at face value.

I agree, i'm just giving an example of a case where it did happen. She was told by the police she could use as evidence the state of her insides, but decided against it, because they also said any defence lawyer would rip that to shreds. She still sees her Mum, but not her Dad. Anyway i'll stop now because I am going off topic.

 

[DreadNiK]

Perhaps your version of consequence and harm done differs from mine and your seems to be limited to the children themselves.

What about the parents and family who don't know if their child has been abused and the associated problems that may cause ?

What about the harm done to the industry of child minding itself ? Parents may not trust anyone with their children again.

Harm and consequence goes beyond the victims themselves.

Fair and good points - but I think our main concern should be the harm to the victims, hence why I am curious as to what the extent of that might have been. Also, if the harm to the victims was not as great as a reactionary instinct might suppose, then surely that knowledge would go some way to alleviating these secondary harms...

 

[DreadNiK]

Errm, I think I made it pretty clear that unless you wait until whoever they harm's lives finish, you can't know the consequences at all, ever. They need to be in jail now, we won't know if the kids remember or are effected by it in any way for decades, you can't ever punish more or less badly based on the eventual effect to the victim because, shockingly we can't see the future.

I am looking for evidence to allow us to have an idea of the eventual harm - i.e. past cases like this...we can't see the future, but the past allows us to predict it and have an estimate of confidence in the prediction - that is elementary.

The only thing you can punish, is the crime, nothing more or less.

Not sure where to start here.

You're first post was dedicated to the idea maybe its not as bad a crime because they won't remember. This is just flat out wrong, the crime is the same, the eventual life long consequences to the victims may prove to be less severe than if the crime was commited against a 10 or 50 yr old, however we don't and can't know that.

Again, we can have some sort of idea and that is what I am looking for. Also, we have worse punishment for child rape than adult rape - therefore we do distinguish between the same basic crime based on age of the victim.

Hence we punish the crime, and sometimes the consequences that happen shortly after that can be known before the trial. IE if a rape victim killed themselves before the persons trial came up, it could certainly effect the outcome. But the possibility a victim MIGHT commit suicide as a direct result of the rape at a later date that hasn't happened yet, isn't taken into account.

You said we only punish based on the crime, now you are saying if consequences of the crime become apparent before the trial, we do take it into account?

 

[LeJosh]

I know people who have been sexually abused, it does not go away it seems.



All I can do is cry for them.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

1. Take them out the back
2. Put a shotty on nape of their neck
3. Pull trigger
4. Carry on with life

 

[The Halk]

I find it very unsettling to hear nothing said when people say that she should be skinned and salted.

Regardless of what crimes someone has committed revenge is never, ever justified.

Victims of crime should have no say at all in what happens to convicted criminals.

As for the criminals in this case, this wasn't a crime of passion, this was cold calculated abuse of children who were utterly defenceless, over a long period of time. I doubt that someone capable of that could ever be fit to release into society, so I would be quite happy for the death penalty to be used here. Not as revenge, but simply because a person had shown themselves to be unfit to exist in society.

 

[YouBunt2]

I may get vilified here for saying this, so I'll add my disclaimer - they are sick and twisted. However:

I haven't really read a whole lot on this but weren't they abusing like REALLY young children, so young they probably a) don't really have a clue what happened and b) won't remember it as they are too young? (obviously it still may well have a subconcious effect if so)...if so, then I view it as a little less bad than if it had been say a bunch of 10 year olds...

Either way, they should still go to jail for quite a while (or maybe an institution). However given my above argument, I find that calling for them to be 'skinned and rolled in salt' a little harsh - and I'm (morally, not necessarily practically) pro corporal and capital punishment and wouldn't be too bothered if these people were executed...but I wouldn't call for such extreme torture (I'd reserve skinning and rolling in salt for someone like Fritzl)

Are you a Bear?

 

[.one.]

Sick ***** .

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Fair and good points - but I think our main concern should be the harm to the victims, hence why I am curious as to what the extent of that might have been. Also, if the harm to the victims was not as great as a reactionary instinct might suppose, then surely that knowledge would go some way to alleviating these secondary harms...

I agree and hope that this kids have no memory of what happened but it should in no way affect the sentencing of those responsible.

 

[Dark_Angel]

I hate hearing about stuff like this.

It's good that they were caught though...

Just me or do they look a bit weird in their photo's?

 

[[ASSE]Hinchy]

One thing I noticed listening to the radio yesterday, is that there seems to be a bit of shock that a woman was involved? Its really irritated me hearing the surprise to some that a female could be involved in such things..

 

[The Halk]

Just me or do they look a bit weird in their photo's?

I thought the same, but friends (ex-friends now I assume) and family said she was a nice bubbly friendly person. I'm guessing that the pictures when taken aren't particularly complimentary, if you could ever judge a book by the cover then those pictures scream guilty.

 

[titaniumx3]

Unless there is an extremely reliable method of ensuring that they can't commit such crimes again, I honestly think people like them should lose all rights and become property of the state and be used for things like medical research.