NVIDIA 4000 Series

[no_1_dave]

You fail to see the point, it's not what is the minimum requirement, it's the fact that a very small minority of the pcmr actually have a GPU better then a 3060.

The install base of a ps5 destroys that number several times over as there is nearly 40 million sold.

Oh let's not forget that a ps5 gpu is stronger then 3060 GPU wise.

What does comparing the 3060 to the GPU in the PS5 have to do with it?

I thought the discussion was on install base of people that can run game x on PC vs PS5. All PS5 games which also come out on PC will support graphics cards below the 3060 so will have a larger target audience on the PC. However, said game is likely to sell more on the PS5 due to the large catalog of existing PC games and the fact PC gamers are less likely to spend the high asking price on release

 

[Raelgun]

What does comparing the 3060 to the GPU in the PS5 have to do with it?

I thought the discussion was on install base of people that can run game x on PC vs PS5. All PS5 games which also come out on PC will support graphics cards below the 3060 so will have a larger target audience on the PC. However, said game is likely to sell more on the PS5 due to the large catalog of existing PC games and the fact PC gamers are less likely to spend the high asking price on release

So you're only argument is that more people in the world own pcs to which I agree.

But you really think there's actually enough people with gaming grade pcs?

The answer to that is no, there isn't, using a 3060 was a generous gpu standard to use.

Most people rock Igpu not discrete when gaming, you really think developers will think they are relevant install base?

If they did, we would get optimized PC games, tell me with honesty, do we?

This will answer your pcmr question.

By the way you can Google games sale numbers and they are telling.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

So you're only argument is that more people in the world own pcs to which I agree.

But you really think there's actually enough people with gaming grade pcs?

The answer to that is no, there isn't, using a 3060 was a generous gpu standard to use.

Most people rock Igpu not discrete when gaming, you really think developers will think they are relevant install base?

If they did, we would get optimized PC games, tell me with honesty, do we?

This will answer your pcmr question.

By the way you can Google games sale numbers and they are telling.

There are no doubt games like MOBAs where they just use cartoony graphics so it can run on a toaster.

But the issue is the PC as a mass market cutting edge platform. If Nvidia/AMD are not going to give decent generational improvements under £450,then devs are going to look at consoles instead because they have some idea of what hardware they will be getting. It's no point saying how good an RTX4090 is,if the mainstream improvements are useless.

It was the huge improvements in mainstream dGPUs in the past between 1996~2016,which is what enabled a huge jump in visual effects in games. There has to be a big enough base of mainstream gamers for PC games to push things. This is why Nvidia launched the 8800GT when Crysis was out.

Devs probably expected by now,most mainstream dGPUs would have much more VRAM by now,and have faster cores. Instead you have more pathetic improvements,and rubbish amounts of VRAM. Cards like the RTX4060TI/RTX4060/RX7600 should be sub £300 cards especially if they only have 8GB of VRAM.

Every card over £300 should realistically have 12GB/16GB of VRAM as a minimum. Between 2009 to 2016 we went from 768MB/1GB VRAM mainstream dGPUs to 6GB/8GB ones. Since then,we had two SKUs under £450 offer 12GB in the last 7 YEARS!

This current state of affairs is entirely the fault of Nvidia/AMD(especially Nvidia).

 

[no_1_dave]

So you're only argument is that more people in the world own pcs to which I agree.

But you really think there's actually enough people with gaming grade pcs?

The answer to that is no, there isn't, using a 3060 was a generous gpu standard to use.

Most people rock Igpu not discrete when gaming, you really think developers will think they are relevant install base?

If they did, we would get optimized PC games, tell me with honesty, do we?

This will answer your pcmr question.

By the way you can Google games sale numbers and they are telling.

your*

I'm not arguing about anything. I stumbled onto an argument you appeared to be having with somebody else where you made the ridiculous comment that the 3060 is the minimum spec for a PC to be used for games. After which you proceeded to compare the install base of gaming capable PCs to PS5 using the 3060 as a minimum LOL

 

[Bencher]

You fail to see the point, it's not what is the minimum requirement, it's the fact that a very small minority of the pcmr actually have a GPU better then a 3060.

The install base of a ps5 destroys that number several times over as there is nearly 40 million sold.

Oh let's not forget that a ps5 gpu is stronger then 3060 GPU wise.

And yet the same games that run like crap on pc also run like crap on consoles. Your argument doesn't check out

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

If the RTX4060/RTX4060TI only have 8GB of VRAM,then the lack of VRAM is going to hinder their RT performance too:

Star Wars Jedi: Survivor Benchmark: 8GB vs. 16GB VRAM, EA Says Gamers Using Wrong Windows

Support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/hardwareunboxedJoin us on Floatplane: https://www.floatplane.com/channel/HardwareUnboxedBuy relevant products ...

www.youtube.com

The RX6800 beats the RTX3070 when RT is on. Also Windows 10 and Windows 11 appeared to make no difference.

 

[Raelgun]

your*

I'm not arguing about anything. I stumbled onto an argument you appeared to be having with somebody else where you made the ridiculous comment that the 3060 is the minimum spec for a PC to be used for games. After which you proceeded to compare the install base of gaming capable PCs to PS5 using the 3060 as a minimum LOL

I never said the 3060 was a minimum requirement so you are just arguing.

It's fact that there are more people with a ps5 then own a reasonable gaming PC and game sales confirm this which is why devs focus on consoles more.

The pcmr cant accept this that there are more ps5 users and a ps5 is more powerful then the average user of gaming PCs.

I presented evidence of numbers with nearly 40 million ps5 sold and growing.

If you think there is that many gaming PCs that can run modern titles is hilarious.

 

[Raelgun]

And yet the same games that run like crap on pc also run like crap on consoles. Your argument doesn't check out

Yet PCs costing thousands run worse then the games on consoles that do run bad.

Almost every PC game being released had issues, only some consoles games being released has issues.

Your argument is weak

 

[chrcoluk]

And yet the same games that run like crap on pc also run like crap on consoles. Your argument doesn't check out

For me is two main issues.

1 - Value for money, the gap has never been as wide I think.
2 - The experience on the platform, consoles used to have a problem where they performed really badly in lots of games, really bad loading times, on top of the lower visual quality. Now the loading times have been dealt with, the performance is not as bad as it used to be (older games on the latest consoles seem to run pretty smooth now), and they even have baked in features for screenshots and game recording which they didnt have a few generations back.

What PC still has is the ability to mod your games, cheat engine, and to really ramp up visual quality, but that latter one is going away for newer games because the hardware required for it is becoming less viable.

The reason these issues get brought up is you going to get a GPU that costs more than an entire games console, at the very least match the experience on it.

 

[Bencher]

Yet PCs costing thousands run worse then the games on consoles that do run bad.

Almost every PC game being released had issues, only some consoles games being released has issues.

Your argument is weak

None of that is actually true. PC's costing thousands run much better than the consoles. Yes, even in those problematic games. What you just said is just a widespread myth that is not true. At all. Jedi Survivor runs better on PS5 than it does on xbox, so let's focus on the PS5 version. The game drops to 970p and 15 freaking FPS in Quality mode on a ps5. In performance mode resolution drops to 648p and around 30 fps!! It also uses FSR2 with no way to disable it which makes image quality even worse than it already is, cause sadly FSR 2 is absolutely horrible in this game. Now of course youll call jedi an exception, then ill mention forspoken which youll also call an exception,, then cyberpunk which youll also call an exception, and the list goes on. It's just a fact that problematic PC games are also problematic on consoles, the only exception I can remember is TLOU. But -- TLOU included -- none of the games run better on a console than on a PC costing thousands.. That is just flat out lying honestly.


If anything, your argument is weak

 

[Bencher]

For me is two main issues.

1 - Value for money, the gap has never been as wide I think.
2 - The experience on the platform, consoles used to have a problem where they performed really badly in lots of games, really bad loading times, on top of the lower visual quality. Now the loading times have been dealt with, the performance is not as bad as it used to be (older games on the latest consoles seem to run pretty smooth now), and they even have baked in features for screenshots and game recording which they didnt have a few generations back.

What PC still has is the ability to mod your games, cheat engine, and to really ramp up visual quality, but that latter one is going away for newer games because the hardware required for it is becoming less viable.

The reason these issues get brought up is you going to get a GPU that costs more than an entire games console, at the very least match the experience on it.

Yes, the loading times were absolutely horrible and kept me away from consoles in the past, now the problem is fixed.

But again,, it is absolutely not true that a GPU that costs more than an entire console runs worse. Whoever said that to you was just lying. For what reason, I don't know, but it's just not true. PS5 renders lots of those heavy games at 650 to 900p....

 

[TNA]

PS5 renders lots of those heavy games at 650 to 900p....

Lies! Leading up to it's release they said it would do 4K at 120fps. Even some here were saying it

 

[Alt0153]

Lies! Leading up to it's release they said it would do 4K at 120fps. Even some here were saying it

maybe in the main menu

 

[TNA]

maybe in the main menu

Yeah, that's probably what they meant

 

[Shaz12]

Its very interesting how in the past Nvidia's Gameworks program used to cripple AMD cards by using proprietory features but now the shoe is on the other foot. Nvidia sponsored games do include FSR and XESS, even those which were likely funded by Nvidia like DL2 and Cyberpunk. But almost none of the AMD sponsored games support Nvidia features. In fact they seem to be going out of their way to ensure the game does not play to Nvidia's strengths. There is no reason why the Jedi Survivor does not support XeSS or DLSS considering its UE4 title and DLSS integration is just a checkbox if FSR 2 is already implemented. The modder PureDark has already released a Frame Generation mod for the game and is saying DLSS 2 is likely on the way. If a single modder can do this, its quite clear the omission of DLSS and XeSS is intentional. Also the RT in the game as usual is very underwhelming likely because it was developed on AMD cards. RT adds a lot of longetivity to the game. In Cyberpunk, I am looking forward to playing it in the future through 4 bounces and 6 rays which dramatically change the look of the game again. Limiting RT serves no purpose as even AMD cards at some point will get good at RT

 

[NZXT30]

You fail to see the point, it's not what is the minimum requirement, it's the fact that a very small minority of the pcmr actually have a GPU better then a 3060.

The install base of a ps5 destroys that number several times over as there is nearly 40 million sold.

Oh let's not forget that a ps5 gpu is stronger then 3060 GPU wise.

You think 40m total PS5s sold is some big number? There were 31m+ Steam users online at the same time yesterday evening. The equivalent PS5 concurrent users number would be 10-20 times less than that.

Some of the most popular PC games are not even on Steam such as League of Legends, Valorant, World of warcraft, Escape from Tarkov etc. The PC gaming userbase dwarfs all consoles combined.

FF15 sold 10m on all platforms. https://www.pushsquare.com/news/2022/05/final-fantasy-xv-hits-10-million-units-sold-worldwide

Valheim on PC outsold it with no advertisement just word of mouth.

And you think FF16 will somehow outsell every PC game? There are PC gaming juggernauts with playerbases bigger than all PS3s + PS4s + PS5s ever sold. You're completely out of touch with reality son.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Its very interesting how in the past Nvidia's Gameworks program used to cripple AMD cards by using proprietory features but now the shoe is on the other foot. Nvidia sponsored games do include FSR and XESS, even those which were likely funded by Nvidia like DL2 and Cyberpunk. But almost none of the AMD sponsored games support Nvidia features. In fact they seem to be going out of their way to ensure the game does not play to Nvidia's strengths. There is no reason why the Jedi Survivor does not support XeSS or DLSS considering its UE4 title and DLSS integration is just a checkbox if FSR 2 is already implemented. The modder PureDark has already released a Frame Generation mod for the game and is saying DLSS 2 is likely on the way. If a single modder can do this, its quite clear the omission of DLSS and XeSS is intentional. Also the RT in the game as usual is very underwhelming likely because it was developed on AMD cards. RT adds a lot of longetivity to the game. In Cyberpunk, I am looking forward to playing it in the future through 4 bounces and 6 rays which dramatically change the look of the game again. Limiting RT serves no purpose as even AMD cards at some point will get good at RT

Nvidia itself has limited the RT performance of its own dGPUs with not enough VRAM. RT games tend to use more VRAM,as some of the RT data needs to be stored in VRAM.

If Nvidia had included 12GB~16GB on the RTX3070/RTX3070TI,then AMD would be able to show some advantages

You think 40m total PS5s sold is some big number? There were 31m+ Steam users online at the same time yesterday evening. The equivalent PS5 concurrent users number would be 10-20 times less than that.

Some of the most popular PC games are not even on Steam such as League of Legends, Valorant, World of warcraft, Escape from Tarkov etc. The PC gaming userbase dwarfs all consoles combined.

FF15 sold 10m on all platforms. https://www.pushsquare.com/news/2022/05/final-fantasy-xv-hits-10-million-units-sold-worldwide

Valheim on PC outsold it with no advertisement just word of mouth.

And you think FF16 will somehow outsell every PC game? There are PC gaming juggernauts with playerbases bigger than all PS3s + PS4s + PS5s ever sold. You're completely out of touch with reality son.

Which is not the point he was making. If you want to go on about PC gaming,stuff such as The Sims,etc has tons of players. I still play lots of older games which are great. RTS games such as SupCom,StarCraft 2,etc are still great fun. But these are all old games,or based on older engines.

He was making the point about modern mainstream hardware stagnating and as a mainstream PC gamer,I am seeing it happening in front of me for the last 7 years. I hardly know anyone with better than an RTX3080 level dGPU,and most of my gaming friends have worse hardware.

This is limiting the potential of PC as a cutting edge platform. Just because all the RTX4090,etc owners pop up on forums doesn't hide the fact you shouldn't be excuse making for 8GB VRAM stagnation or trash like the RTX4060,RX7600,etc being released today at useless pricing.

After three years,no newly released £300+ card should have 8GB of VRAM. VRAM directly impacts not only RT performance but texture quality. One of the biggest advantage PC had over consoles is texture quality and to mod older games to have better textures,as people such as @KompuKare and I have talked about for years.

Modding games is one of the biggest advantages of PC over console,yet these rubbish cards also limit that too. FFS,I literally have to now curate texture mods in older games(at qHD) so I can stay within the 8GB VRAM framebuffer of my dGPU.

PCMR need to stop defending Nvidia,AMD and Intel. All the stupid spin about DLSS,FSR,etc which economy hardware consoles sold on the cheap need to do. Yet we need to do it on dGPUs which cost more than a 3 year console.

For years these companies have been taking the mickey with pricing at the higher end,which has meant hardware for normal users has stagnated. PCMR on forums keep defending this.

There should be situation where nearly three old consoles should be competing in hardware with a mainstream gaming PC,especially as the same consoles are going to be refreshed with better hardware in the next year according to rumours.

 

[NZXT30]

Nvidia itself has limited the RT performance of its own dGPUs with not enough VRAM. RT games tend to use more VRAM,as some of the RT data needs to be stored in VRAM.

If Nvidia had included 12GB~16GB on the RTX3070/RTX3070TI,then AMD would be able to show some advantages



Which is not the point he was making. If you want to go on about PC gaming,stuff such as The Sims,etc has tons of players. I still play lots of older games which are great.

He was making the point about mainstream hardware stagnating and as a mainstream PC gamer,I am seeing it happening in front of me for the last 7 years. This is limiting the potential of PC as a cutting edge platform. Just because all the RTX4090,etc owners pop up on forums doesn't hide the fact you shouldn't be excuse making for 8GB VRAM stagnation or trash like the RTX4060,RX7600,etc being released today at useless pricing.

PCMR need to stop defending Nvidia,AMD and Intel. For years they have been taking the mickey with pricing at the higher end,which has meant hardware for normal users has stagnated.

That's exactly the point he was making. Nvidia selling 4090s to some lemmings does not affect the PC gaming market whatsoever.

You can still get mainstream GPUs for a decent price that will give you PS5 like performance. We also now got 8 TFlops APUs coming up making their way into PC gaming handhelds and even Intel got plans to provide good value GPUs.

Nvidia and AMD are trying to hike prices in some tiers and if it works then all it means is that people are will to pay more money for GPUs. I fully expect a substantial price hike with the PS6 as PS5 scalping proved people are easily willing to pay $800 for a console.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

That's exactly the point he was making. Nvidia selling 4090s to some lemmings does not affect the PC gaming market whatsoever.

You can still get mainstream GPUs for a decent price that will give you PS5 like performance. We also now got 8 TFlops APUs coming up making their way into PC gaming handhelds and even Intel got plans to provide good value GPUs.

Nvidia and AMD are trying to hike prices and if it works then all it means is that people are will to pay more money for GPUs. I fully expect a substantial price hike with the PS6 as PS5 scalping proved people are easily willing to pay $800 for a console.

This is how pathetic things have gotten now.

Within two years of the XBox 360 launch we got the Nvidia 8800GT and games such as Crysis. That was a cheaper dGPU than an XBox 360 and had as much VRAM as the whole console had unified RAM. The XBox 360 was $399,the 8800GT was $250,and was almost the performance of the flagship 8800GTX released a year earlier.

This is why many of us could actually run Crysis in the first place,which made the consoles look like toasters. The best equivalent mainstream dGPUs before were cards like the X1950 Pro and 7900GS. It doubled the performance in games such as F.E.A.R. for example:

https://tpucdn.com/review/zotac-geforce-8800-gt/images/fear_1600_1200.gif

We are getting close to the third anniversary of the PS5/XBox Series X. The PS5 starts at $400. So where is the $250 16GB VRAM dGPU with almost the same performance as an RX6900XT/RTX3090? Nowhere,because that is how bad mainstream dGPUs have gotten.

We get junk like the RTX4060/RTX4060TI/RX7600XT with only 8GB of VRAM. Even if the RTX4060TI ended up being an RTX3070TI and Nvidia decided to price it £400,it would only be 20% faster than my RTX3060TI after nearly three years. Nvidia wants to price it at £450.

That doesn't includes more and more evidence showing the RT titles are very CPU limited too and need more VRAM to store the calculations. We are still stuck at six cores under £300 for the new DDR5 platforms,when we should have had 8 cores by now. Six cores have become the new quad cores.

Enough said. PCMR needs to expect more. These companies are playing us for fools.

If these greedy PC parts companies can't be bothered,I really hope the console refreshes expose these junk releases for the ripoffs they really are.

 

[Jono8]

I'm still pretty stunned that they plan to give the 4060 and 4060ti 8Gb.

I mean the 1070 had 8gb and that would be 3 generations prior....!!

The 4070,4070ti really should have been given 16, with the xx60 cards 12.