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NVIDIA 4000 Series

While I generally agree, you have to admit that Ray Tracing is the biggest innovation in graphics since pixel shaders(I still, to this day, remember Morrowind water)

Wasting your time :p

Utterly idiotic viewpoint to not think features are tied into value/pricing and are deserving of demanding a premium over competition that lacks here (especially when the cost of having said team full of engineers and investing into r&d to get said features requires money coming from somewhere....). Even HUB and their fans (raging amd fans) voted in poll etc. that amd need to be priced iirc, about 15-20% cheaper than nvidia since they don't have the same amount of features and more importantly, the same quality and in some cases, the same uptake for said features.

Also, ray tracing is not really a nvidia thing, although they have done all the leg work to get it to where it is, thankfully they did otherwise we still be waiting for real time ray tracing in games!
 
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My mind is blown actually, from both 4070S FE and 4080S FE being available. Two best cooler/price combos at this point, genuinely tempting buy even if I don't need an upgrade

Either stock is really high, which I doubt. Or demand is REALLY low
Most likely the demand. Yes, generally price drops comparing to 4080 are nice to see, but it's still way more expensive than previous generation was (MSRP to MSRP) and even "cheap" 4080S is still around £1k, which is WAY outside the budget of most of the people. 4090 at least has a good use cases outside gaming, where it can earn monies, which 4080 and below do not usually have.
 
While I generally agree, you have to admit that Ray Tracing is the biggest innovation in graphics since pixel shaders(I still, to this day, remember Morrowind water)
I am sorry, what? Since pixel shaders? RT has been around for WAY longer than pixel shaders - it's been already in use in the 70s of past century. :) First recorded use seems to have been in 1968. Only just now hardware became fast enough to actually run it in real time (though still with loads of shortcuts and AI to make it sensibly good with some sensible FPS). It's not an innovation at all, it's just highly inefficient way of generating graphics in games really. In the future it might become efficient, unless an actual innovation emerges to replace it (like full AI image generation or somesuch).
 
I am sorry, what? Since pixel shaders? RT has been around for WAY longer than pixel shaders - it's been already in use in the 70s of past century. :) First recorded use seems to have been in 1968. Only just now hardware became fast enough to actually run it in real time (though still with loads of shortcuts and AI to make it sensibly good with some sensible FPS). It's not an innovation at all, it's just highly inefficient way of generating graphics in games really. In the future it might become efficient, unless an actual innovation emerges to replace it (like full AI image generation or somesuch).
Yes I know that, I meant graphics in games. The concept itself is very old - I did raytracing in Maya while in highschool ;)
 
Also, ray tracing is not really a nvidia thing, although they have done all the leg work to get it to where it is, thankfully they did otherwise we still be waiting for real time ray tracing in games!
NVIDIA R&D wasn't done for gaming, that's just a byproduct really. And no wonder, as we are actually still waiting for real ray tracing in games - it's worth noting only in a handful of titles and that's where it ends, so far. Huge majority of games do not use any RT at all, still, and that won't change anytime soon. And a bunch of games have pathetic use of RT added to them, which do not really change anything (but also cost relatively little in terms of FPS).
 
NVIDIA R&D wasn't done for gaming, that's just a byproduct really. And no wonder, as we are actually still waiting for real ray tracing in games - it's worth noting only in a handful of titles and that's where it ends, so far. Huge majority of games do not use any RT at all, still, and that won't change anytime soon. And a bunch of games have pathetic use of RT added to them, which do not really change anything (but also cost relatively little in terms of FPS).
They had a chip with tensors so they needed to find use for them (and undermine the competition) hence why we have raytracing in games ;)
 
Yes I know that, I meant graphics in games. The concept itself is very old - I did raytracing in Maya while in highschool ;)
Which is why it's not an innovation at all, as it's ancient. The hardware itself with ray accelerators is, I'd say. DLSS is an innovation (FG isn't, but is an improvement of what we had before in TVs etc.), together with all the AI stuff that allowed it to run sensibly well, instead. :) But all the hardware was designed primarily for the enterprise market, with big monies, we got it just by the way (as it was cheaper to design same chips for both markets, I reckon). Otherwise, we likely wouldn't get anything like that anytime soon.
 
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They had a chip with tensors so they needed to find use for them (and undermine the competition) hence why we have raytracing in games ;)
It could be seen that way, but RT they developed mostly for the enterprise market, same as tensors. And as byproduct added it to gaming cards too, because why not (as in, cheaper to design one chip type than separate for gaming market, it seems). Then AI started to be relevant and then it spilled over to games in form of DLSS and now denoising in RT, etc. as well. Gaming market mostly helps funding R&D for enterprise market, but the latter is the main market for NVIDIA and main R&D target. We just get scraps, in a way - but that's fine as long as it actually works well. :) Too bad about the pricing.
 
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NVIDIA R&D wasn't done for gaming, that's just a byproduct really. And no wonder, as we are actually still waiting for real ray tracing in games - it's worth noting only in a handful of titles and that's where it ends, so far. Huge majority of games do not use any RT at all, still, and that won't change anytime soon. And a bunch of games have pathetic use of RT added to them, which do not really change anything (but also cost relatively little in terms of FPS).

Doesn't matter if the r&d was or wasn't for gaming (same way it doesn't matter where amds or intels r&d money goes), it doesn't change the fact that they have made real time ray tracing possible in gaming.

Handful of titles? Are you referring to 100% PT? Then yes although I think it's more than a handful now, if you're referring to RT overall, it's far far far more than a handful:


Depends on what games you play, like I've said many times, based on my own experience, majority of games I've played in past 2-3 years have all had RT in some form and most of which have made a nice difference. Only one game where RT left me underwhelmed and that was hogwarts and that's cause it was just downright broken, maybe fixed now though.

They had a chip with tensors so they needed to find use for them (and undermine the competition) hence why we have raytracing in games ;)

The tensor cores are used for dlss and most of the other ai workloads of the rtx feature set, maybe they are or aren't required to get as good results but problem is, we have no evidence to show otherwise other than amds attempt at things like upscaling and rt, which as we know isn't a patch on nvidias features.
 
Doesn't matter if the r&d was or wasn't for gaming (same way it doesn't matter where amds or intels r&d money goes), it doesn't change the fact that they have made real time ray tracing possible in gaming.

Handful of titles? Are you referring to 100% PT? Then yes although I think it's more than a handful now, if you're referring to RT overall, it's far far far more than a handful:


Depends on what games you play, like I've said many times, based on my own experience, majority of games I've played in past 2-3 years have all had RT in some form and most of which have made a nice difference. Only one game where RT left me underwhelmed and that was hogwarts and that's cause it was just downright broken, maybe fixed now though.
In my eyes the only game which actually made an impression with RT (well PT) on me was CP2077 (but many textures are just awful - I blame 8GB of vRAM GPUs for that :p). Metro LL SE looks very good without PT, as they used properly GI - but games that use GI properly (and that in my eyes is the actually good use of RT in games) almost do not exist, still. Minecraft with RT actually looks very good too, thanks to properly used GI as well. From the list you linked, only 8 (sic!) games use full RT, all the rest have only bits and pieces in them and almost none of them have RT GI - and even that is a lie, as they listed CP2077 twice and Portal twice, for example. :) And only TWO of these games are big AAA titles I believe. So yes, it's a handful of games, at best.

RT shadows we can safely ignore as it's in huge majority of titles irrelevant and barely makes a visual difference. Pure reflections just look bad in most titles IMHO, because devs just make as many surfaces shiny as possible and that's NOT how real life looks like at all. RT should make games look more realistic, but in most games it just make them look worse for mentioned earlier reasons. It will get better when artists start using it properly as just another tool instead of showing off what it can do. This includes RTX remix examples shown so far - slapping just RT on old titles, without any artistic vision makes them mostly look just bad (either too bright or too dark in places, loads of fog that makes it harder to see what's going on, as many shiny mirror-like surfaces as possible etc.). It's a good tool, but it's used badly in most games, in short words.

I suspect we'll see more and more UE5+ games with software Lumen (and Nanite) instead of RTX style RT/PT. That is R&D of Epic and not NVIDIA, though, made both for gamers and pros (as that engine is already being used in professional productions outside the scope of gaming).
 
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In my eyes the only game which actually made an impression with RT (well PT) on me was CP2077 (but many textures are just awful - I blame 8GB of vRAM GPUs for that :p). Metro LL SE looks very good without PT, as they used properly GI - but games that use GI properly (and that in my eyes is the actually good use of RT in games) almost do not exist, still. Minecraft with RT actually looks very good too, thanks to properly used GI as well. From the list you linked, only 9 (sic!) games use full RT, all the rest have only bits and pieces in them and almost none of them have RT GI - and even that is a lie, as they listed CP2077 twice and Portal twice, for example. :) So yes, it's a handful of games.

RT shadows we can safely ignore as it's in huge majority of titles irrelevant and barely makes a visual difference. Pure reflections just look bad in most titles IMHO, because devs just make as many surfaces shiny as possible and that's NOT how real life looks like at all. RT should make games look more realistic, but in most games it just make them look worse for mentioned earlier reasons. It will get better when artists start using it properly as just another tool instead of showing off what it can do. This includes RTX remix examoples shown so far - slapping just RT on old titles, without any artistic vision makes them mostly look just bad (either too bright or too dark in places, loads of fog that makes it harder to see what's going on, as many shiny mirror-like surfaces as possible etc.). It's a good tool, but it's used badly in most games, in short words.

I suspect we'll see more and more UE5+ games with software Lumen (and Nanite) instead of RTX style RT/PT. That is R&D of Epic and not NVIDIA, though, made both for gamers and pros (as that engine is already being used in professional productions outside the scope of gaming).
CP 2077 may not have the best textures ever but its textures still look better than most games textures especially when you consider the density of the city and everything happening on screen. Avatar textures look great for example but there is so much copy and paste of the textures/assets (obviosuly to keep vram down primarily) but everything else exceeds other games visuals in every other way imo.

metro ee looks incredible and a noticeable improvement over the old version.

I do agree RT GI isn't used enough, although we're seeing it more now so hopefully that will change going forward especially when it aids in providing a better dynamic world in terms of physics and destruction as shown with the finals.

RT shadows is an underrated RT effect, if you only look at it in tomb raider for example then yes, it's pointless but there are plenty of games where shadows look incredible and one of my favourites is actually an amd sponsored one so it's very light but it looks incredible in motion, riftbreaker.

Disagree on reflections too, SSR etc. is so poor in comparison now, even the best games for reflections look so bad due to the artifacts, some games you literally don't see a puddle/reflection at all despite there being one there since devs haven't done anything to provide the reflection.

People say "too shiny/mirror" but in all seriousness, have you been to likes of hong kong, new york and so on when its rained? Or seen certain lakes? Puddles and so on literally are mirror like e.g. these 2 photos are not photoshopped at all:

J6Y1Yqeh.jpg


lXX6C6Nh.jpg

Problem with RTX remix is the modders aren't fully replacing the textures/assets so you can't tell the difference between glass, metal, fabric and so on so yes they need to do a proper overhaul as we saw with portal rtx but alas, there is only so much you can do with games like GTA SA and max payne given how old they are.

I stated this in the RT thread but will post it here too but this is my opinion on RT in general now:

Having become so accustomed to RT/PT now, it's actually incredibly jarring when going back to older full raster based games, even the best looking ones like batman AK, RDR 2, GTA 5 etc. and the downsides with raster are immediately obvious now and actually somewhat ruin the immersion I find with things like the reflections disappearing just because you change your angle ever so slightly, rooms/areas of the gameworld, which has this illuminating glow despite there being no light to provide this anywhere, light leaking in from other closed of rooms, lack of shadows on some objects, AO being poor which all adds to that flat popup book look. Nothing looks/feels right in these games when compared to AW 2, CP 2077, DL 2, metro ee etc. It really is astonishing just how "fake" raster is.

UE 5 software RT is a step up from raster methods but sadly still pales compared to the hardware enabled RT in UE 5, I do hope devs give people more choice on this going forward and allow those with RT capable gpus to enable features but alas, I can't see the RTX implementations going anywhere any time soon especially considering nvidia have worked directly with UE to build a lot of the RTX RT features direct into the engine.

 
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CP 2077 may not have the best textures ever but its textures still look better than most games textures especially when you consider the density of the city and everything happening on screen.
Again, I blame 8GB vRAM for that (and consoles). These could be way better, as modders proven. Adding RT for realism but leaving textures bad is a sin! >)
Avatar textures look great for example but there is so much copy and paste of the textures/assets (obviosuly to keep vram down primarily) but everything else exceeds other games visuals in every other way imo.
I've not played it yet, but on few vids I've seen gameplay it looks good and not too overdone with some effects.
metro ee looks incredible and a noticeable improvement over the old version.
Absolutely, but they were sure to do it properly instead of just slapping RT effects on top and calling it done - which is my point exactly.
I do agree RT GI isn't used enough, although we're seeing it more now so hopefully that will change going forward especially when it aids in providing a better dynamic world in terms of physics and destruction as shown with the finals.
RT and destruction should work very well together. I am yet to see it done well, though.
RT shadows is an underrated RT effect, if you only look at it in tomb raider for example then yes, it's pointless but there are plenty of games where shadows look incredible and one of my favourites is actually an amd sponsored one so it's very light but it looks incredible in motion, riftbreaker.
I play Riftbreaker a lot recently, great game with great graphics! :) Absolutely in this one RT is done right, even if limited, but doesn't klill FPS for nothing. :) However, I don't believe it to be a AMD sponsored title (you won't find AMD logo on start screens, description, etc.) - it's an indie game where they wrote their own engine and tried to use only open technologies (hence FSR but also XeSS, etc.). They posted a lot of technical info about their engine and what they did, how and why. Nothing of that had anything to do with AMD in sponsorship matters. Most games do not use RT with such good results, though. Plus, for reflections they decided to use (again open source stuff) AMD tech without any RT, for performance reasons. I reckon the most they got from AMD were some advise now and then how to implement stuff best and "advert" on AMD website. As far as I am aware no monies or official contract were ever exchanged.
Disagree on reflections too, SSR etc. is so poor in comparison now, even the best games for reflections look so bad due to the artifacts, some games you literally don't see a puddle/reflection at all despite there being one there since devs haven't done anything to provide the reflection.
You misread what I said - I don't criticise RT reflections as such, they're often superior to SSR, especially when moving camera doesn't cause reflections to vanish, etc. I criticise how they're implemented in most games - making things often look unrealistic, in bad taste. It's not the fault of RT, it's simply devs trying to show off with bad results. I refuse to have my FPS killed by such bad use.
People say "too shiny/mirror" but in all seriousness, have you been to likes of hong kong, new york and so on when its rained? Or seen certain lakes? Puddles and so on literally are mirror like e.g. these 2 photos are not photoshopped at all:
Wet roads in CP2077 = good effect. Shiny floors and walls in all buildings = bad, unrealistic results. The latter is still very common.
Problem with RTX remix is the modders aren't fully replacing the textures/assets so you can't tell the difference between glass, metal, fabric and so on so yes they need to do a proper overhaul as we saw with portal rtx but alas, there is only so much you can do with games like GTA SA and max payne given how old they are.
It's not just that. They need to run through WHOLE game and adjust light positions and not just make them shine with realistic rays - that's not going to work, when game was designed with "fake" light in mind. Modders often don't do that, as it's way too much work. Textures of course as well, but RTX Remix has built in AI generation for textures, I believe, that makes it faster and easier and one can easily adjust how reflective each is, what material etc. (even existing ones). That's, again, not really being done. People forget there is a reason games take time and monies to make, hence I wouldn't count on anything actually looking good coming out anytime soon from the RTX Remix modders.
I stated this in the RT thread but will post it here too but this is my opinion on RT in general now:

UE 5 software RT is a step up from raster methods but sadly still pales compared to the hardware enabled RT in UE 5, I do hope devs give people more choice on this going forward and allow those with RT capable gpus to enable features but alas, I can't see the RTX implementations going anywhere any time soon especially considering nvidia have worked directly with UE to build a lot of the RTX RT features direct into the engine.
I don't know what the exact reasons are for most UE5 games missing hardware RT, but likely it's about performance and the fact that most of the GPUs on the market still can't do HW RT fast enough to bother, when software solution is good enough. For the real, full RT in games, without too many compromises, we'll wait a generation or two more likely (human generations, not GPU ones).
 
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Again, I blame 8GB vRAM for that (and consoles). These could be way better, as modders proven. Adding RT for realism but leaving textures bad is a sin! >)

I've not played it yet, but on few vids I've seen gameplay it looks good and not too overdone with some effects.

Absolutely, but they were sure to do it properly instead of just slapping RT effects on top and calling it done - which is my point exactly.

RT and destruction should work very well together. I am yet to see it done well, though.

I play Riftbreaker a lot recently, great game with great graphics! :) Absolutely in this one RT is done right, even if limited, but doesn't klill FPS for nothing. :) However, I don't believe it to be a AMD sponsored title (you won't find AMD logo on start screens, description, etc.) - it's an indie game where they wrote their own engine and tried to use only open technologies (hence FSR but also XeSS, etc.). They posted a lot of technical info about their engine and what they did, how and why. Nothing of that had anything to do with AMD in sponsorship matters. Most games do not use RT with such good results, though. Plus, for reflections they decided to use (again open source stuff) AMD tech without any RT, for performance reasons. I reckon the most they got from AMD were some advise now and then how to implement stuff best and "advert" on AMD website. As far as I am aware no monies or official contract were ever exchanged.

You misread what I said - I don't criticise RT reflections as such, they're often superior to SSR, especially when moving camera doesn't cause reflections to vanish, etc. I criticise how they're implemented in most games - making things often look unrealistic, in bad taste. It's not the fault of RT, it's simply devs trying to show off with bad results. I refuse to have my FPS killed by such bad use.

Wet roads in CP2077 = good effect. Shiny floors and walls in all buildings = bad, unrealistic results. The latter is still very common.

It's not just that. They need to run through WHOLE game and adjust light positions and not just make them shine with realistic rays - that's not going to work, when game was designed with "fake" light in mind. Modders often don't do that, as it's way too much work. Textures of course as well, but RTX Remix has built in AI generation for textures, I believe, that makes it faster and easier and one can easily adjust how reflective each is, what material etc. (even existing ones). That's, again, not really being done. People forget there is a reason games take time and monies to make, hence I wouldn't count on anything actually looking good coming out anytime soon from the RTX Remix modders.

I don't know what the exact reasons are for most UE5 games missing hardware RT, but likely it's about performance and the fact that most of the GPUs on the market still can't do HW RT fast enough to bother, when software solution is good enough. For the real, full RT in games, without too many compromises, we'll wait a generation or two more likely (human generations, not GPU ones).

I can't remember if there was logos or not but there were interviews and so on with amd and the game devs stating amds involvement:



And pretty sure there was a few other things floating about. Maybe not a full technical sponsorship like avatar, callisto but still some of amds input there. Sponsorship doesn't neccasrily always mean money exchanging hands, it can be as simple as amd just providing their time and engineers to the companies or even just simply partnering together to promote their tech and the game using amd to extra visibility.

What bad examples of RT reflections are you talking about then? Only one which I thought was shocking and falls inline to what you are explaining was hogwarts but that was buggy as anything, iirc, there was a mod to fix/improve this.
 
I know ;) but I also cannot forgive AMD for buying ATi, I think they would be better off alone as AMD is clearly underfunding GPU division and is lacking talent there. Their CPUs are awesome, graphics? Not so much.

ATI was going bust, they put a lot of money in to R&D, made some pretty good GPU's and sold them cheap, it did work, but the problem is ATI couldn't cover their costs and all Nvidia had to do was wait them out knowing this.

AMD buying ATI for $5.9 Billion was a bailout, and they made some good GPU's, the HD 4000 and 5000 series were good GPU's, but the ATI mindshare hit a wall and the people hating on AMD for buying ATI in the first place tainted their view on those cards and rather set the tone since. IMO.

AMD could make Hardware based upscaling and it be just as good as DLSS, they could use dedicated RT cores instead of the shader extension method they use now, that would make AMD's RT like Nvidia's in high density throughput, and i think at some point they will, people with in Nvidia say at some point they will have to.

To do that in the short term it requires a lot more investment and AMD simply do not believe that they have the midshare to recover those costs, with 15% market share they certainly don't, so they put the R&D where they know they have the mindshare, and don't Intel know it.

AMD do have the talent, come on, Intel are doing their best and thwarted by better AMD products at every turn, not for the first time, AMD have cracked the seemingly impossible nut of MCM GPU's, AMD's first big AI card is faster than Nvidia second or third generation's latest and greatest.
 
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This is, or was AMD's RDNA 4 design, look at this thing.... in engineering terms its a priceless work of art.

They pulled the plug on it, too expensive to make for what they think people would be willing to pay for an AMD GPU.

pJytwl1.jpeg
 
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You see the 9 large tiles? those are the GPU tiles, for RDNA 4 AMD will be using only one of those as an RX 8800XT, at the performance level of a 7900XTX, again there are 9 of them in this design.

If we want AMD to do what they really can they first have to know we will reward them for it.
 
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Hogwarts Legacy RT is badly broken unfortunately - though you can do some tweaks to improve it - the shadows are projected over darkening the environment rather than as you'd have with a proper ray tracer/path tracer where the shadows would be formed by the lack of illumination and so on.

Shame as the game would look incredible with a proper path tracer implementation.
 
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