NVIDIA 4000 Series

[JediFragger]

Ideally the 7800XT needs to be at least $100 cheaper than the 4080 12GB and to smack it around somewhat, say 30/40% faster. Job done.

 

[Nexus18]

Welcome to OcUK graphic cards forums where there are only 3 type of people;

Junkie Group 1 - Nvidia fan boys who will defend anything that's excreted from Jensens orifices. He can do no wrong.

Junkie Group 2 - AMD fan boys - Same as above but will defend Lisa to the death despite some rather lacklustre past releases.

Normal Group 3 - People like myself who don't love either company. We can see through both companies excrement and just want to buy something to play games and when we upgrade, we want there to be a decent improvement in performance for roughly the same price we paid last time. Because that is how technology is supposed to improve for the masses, not what is currently happening where ever increasing price points are created if you want better performance when upgrading.

Oh and this Group then gets called a fanboy of either company by the other group when we happen to call out something wrong with the other company!

This post should be pinned

 

[Bill Turnip]

Ideally the 7800XT needs to be at least $100 cheaper than the 4080 12GB and to smack it around somewhat, say 30/40% faster. Job done.

Cheaper and faster. Wonder why no one else thought of that?

 

[D.P.]

Why wouldn't you use the top GPU as the benchmark especially when it's priced not much higher?. If the 90 was smaller then the 4080s would look better but not in terms of price as a 4080 12gb is still going to be barely any faster than a 3080 12gb.

because it is an entirely arbitrary reference point. The 4090 might be the anomaly . So as i said, would the 4080 be considered better value for money if the 4090 had a smaller die and lower performance? It is a pointless comparison.

What matters is the price, performance and features. The 4080 may well be a terrible proposition, but what matters is how it compares to previous generation and the competition.

 

[Quartz]

You are very optimistic regarding Intel and their ability to disrupt the GPU space.

As I said, come back in two years and tell me how wrong I was. But I think that Intel will be able to scale up.

 

[Quartz]

Oh and this Group then gets called a fanboy of either company by the other group when we happen to call out something wrong with the other company!

It's much the same in every sphere. Politics, for instance...

 

[gpuerrilla]

As I said, come back in two years and tell me how wrong I was. But I think that Intel will be able to scale up.

From a consumer perspective, I welcome this with open arms. From computer user experience for almost 40 years, they all will receive the same scrutiny.

 

[Jae-So]

Welcome to OcUK graphic cards forums where there are only 3 type of people;

Junkie Group 1 - Nvidia fan boys who will defend anything that's excreted from Jensens orifices. He can do no wrong.

Junkie Group 2 - AMD fan boys - Same as above but will defend Lisa to the death despite some rather lacklustre past releases.

Normal Group 3 - People like myself who don't love either company. We can see through both companies excrement and just want to buy something to play games and when we upgrade, we want there to be a decent improvement in performance for roughly the same price we paid last time. Because that is how technology is supposed to improve for the masses, not what is currently happening where ever increasing price points are created if you want better performance when upgrading.

Oh and this Group then gets called a fanboy of either company by the other group when we happen to call out something wrong with the other company!

Spot on

 

[aoaaron]

Yea, AMD really dropped the ball there. They should've priced comparable cards at least £200+ less than Nvidia counterpart if only to demonstrate how much more people are paying for RT. I would guess the majority of people are willing to pay £100 more for a similar card with RT but if you had to pay the equivalent of the next tier up just to get RT i suspect most people would balk at that.

If a 7900 performs roughly the same outside of RT as 4090 but is priced similar to the 4080 that's a much easier sell.

I think the will meet in the middle. They will probably price it at 1400 and it have nearly the same rasterisation as the 4090.

For an extra 250 I’d just get the nvidia card. Dlss 3.0 .. well dlss period.. is obviously at this stage far superior to fsr and you will likely get far superior ray tracing.

Hopefully amd come in with a 4080 level card at the 4070 level price and a 4090 level card at a 4080 level price but they’ve never done that so I don’t see them doing it this time.

Even processor wise they’ve slowed down now versus intel and it seems to be pretty equal footing which way a user would go.

I’m just not sure amd have a magic supply to substantially cheaper wafers for their cards. I’m assuming any price difference between the brands will because amd have a lower investment into ai enhanced methods of rtx and machine learning upscaling algorithms .. which will be translated in performance.


It’s sad nvidia didn’t touch base with more developers and have a planned list of RTX remixes that they would be selling at purchable mods for 5-10 quid. Seems like a no brained for them and would definitely sway me to team green

Atm rtx remix looks super cool but it’s only super cool if smarter people than me have an interesting in using it to truly enhance a title or nvidia and the game designers have a commitment to bringing us the mods

 

[DarkFulgore]

Take a look at the value of the £ vs the $ during the last 5 years. Then take a look at inflation during the last 5 years. Then consider shipping costs (energy prices influence this) over the last 5 years. Then consider the supply shortage.

Consider all these points, and it's very obvious why things keep getting more expensive, it's not just Nvidia or AMD being greedy and hiking up prices................

But that's completely irrelevant. Pricing is set by demand, not buy how much aspects of development and logistics have increased. You can't simply pass this increase costs onto your customers everytime, as eventually you will simply make your product less appealing and in turn those increased costs become solely on your statement. Competition is obviously a factor, and while folks think Nvidia have to compete with AMD, thats incorrect. They also have to compete with themselves. Past products because cheaper and more appealing if newer generations cost way more, double for when there is huge supply of previous product.
Best example is the 30 series demand when it launched. This actually increased the pricing for 20 series and people simply couldn't buy a 30 series card. Eventually all cards, even 1080ti increased in value because of demand. That is simply all gone now as we have massive oversupply of GPU's and demand is massively down.

Nvidia's tactic here was to bring in 40 series cards in at a price to make 30 series sell quicker. 40 series comes in at higher tier price, so now 30 series cards look appealing. Once 30 series stock is depleted, Nvidia will no longer be making money on anything unless they start selling 40 series cards, but who are they going to sell too? can't be the same person that just bought a 30 series card, as they already refused to buy a 40 series. Even better, when they do drop the 40 series cards price, there will be even more 30 series cards available for those that do decide to upgrade.
Nvidia had zero choice but to bring the price of 40 series higher out of the gate, as if it was competitive, they would have been stuck lowering the 30 series even more to clear stock, owners of 30 series would have added to already flooded market once they upgrade to 40 series.
Nvidia's deal with TSMC forces them to make the chips, and that forces them to sell volume. They are playing the waiting game. There is a reason EVGA dropped out, they know full well Nvidia's drop the price later and give the middle finger to loyal (fanboys) that bought in earlier and higher prices.

 

[aoaaron]

But that's completely irrelevant. Pricing is set by demand, not buy how much aspects of development and logistics have increased. You can't simply pass this increase costs onto your customers everytime, as eventually you will simply make your product less appealing and in turn those increased costs become solely on your statement. Competition is obviously a factor, and while folks think Nvidia have to compete with AMD, thats incorrect. They also have to compete with themselves. Past products because cheaper and more appealing if newer generations cost way more, double for when there is huge supply of previous product.
Best example is the 30 series demand when it launched. This actually increased the pricing for 20 series and people simply couldn't buy a 30 series card. Eventually all cards, even 1080ti increased in value because of demand. That is simply all gone now as we have massive oversupply of GPU's and demand is massively down.

Nvidia's tactic here was to bring in 40 series cards in at a price to make 30 series sell quicker. 40 series comes in at higher tier price, so now 30 series cards look appealing. Once 30 series stock is depleted, Nvidia will no longer be making money on anything unless they start selling 40 series cards, but who are they going to sell too? can't be the same person that just bought a 30 series card, as they already refused to buy a 40 series. Even better, when they do drop the 40 series cards price, there will be even more 30 series cards available for those that do decide to upgrade.
Nvidia had zero choice but to bring the price of 40 series higher out of the gate, as if it was competitive, they would have been stuck lowering the 30 series even more to clear stock, owners of 30 series would have added to already flooded market once they upgrade to 40 series.
Nvidia's deal with TSMC forces them to make the chips, and that forces them to sell volume. They are playing the waiting game. There is a reason EVGA dropped out, they know full well Nvidia's drop the price later and give the middle finger to loyal (fanboys) that bought in earlier and higher prices.

Let’s see.

If it truly is due to demand and not due to the increased cost of production, then amd’s pricing should be significantly better.

I have no doubt that the 30 series backlog is also causing them issues but the answer to that is to aggressively discount, not try and charge more for the 40 series in light of their competition breathing down their necks.

Something tells me NVDA know AMD aren’t directly competing with them performance and pricing wise, hence they are so relaxed in the pricing.

What is inexcusable from NVDA is the naming scheme for the two 4080 models. Disgusting.

To me; this 40 series is one to sit out. Reminds me of 20 series card. Sadly I need a GPu to drive triple 4k models so I am buying some lube from amazon as we speak to try and reduce the pain.

 

[gpuerrilla]

Something tells me NVDA know AMD aren’t directly competing with them performance and pricing wise, hence they are so relaxed in the pricing.

I think the obvious one here is not they know how weak/strong the card is, it is because they have high inventory to shift and that AMD wont be selling for x weeks after their launch. This gives them time to squeeze as much out on new gen at high prices with old gen at msrp from two years ago prices and can pivot tactic once AMD reveal their hand. Think about it all they have to do is drop prices accordingly, its not rocket science.

 

[D.P.]

This is correct to a point, 4000 series and 7000 series were always going to be more expensive. I don't think AMD will be far behind nvidia prices, but I can hope. Its the scale of price increase to performance uplift which is the sticking point. They are asking too much for too little.

It's often commented on that their products aren't exactly low margin, so scope is there, but it's deciding on what's acceptable to the shareholders.

Margins are high, but pretty typical for tech. What is not priced in to the current margins is the future R&D costs which are increasing exponentially. This why margins have to be high so future products will be competitive.

The shareholders only care about profit, so they would be perfectly happy if lower price points lead to higher volumes, but i suspect that is not the case. Every new release the forums are full of people ranting about costs, but then AMD and Nvidia go on to sell record volumes. The market sets the price, AMD and Nvidia can only try and find the market price .


Personally i find the prices ridiculous, especially compared to a console, but i guess most people don't care that much.

 

[aoaaron]

I think the obvious one here is not they know how weak/strong the card is, it is because they have high inventory to shift and that AMD wont be selling for x weeks after their launch. This gives them time to squeeze as much out on new gen at high prices with old gen at msrp from two years ago prices and can pivot tactic once AMD reveal their hand. Think about it all they have to do is drop prices accordingly, its not rocket science.

Again, we will see with AMD’s pricing.

If they prioritise trying to shift inventory of the 30 series over selling their 40 series cards and AMD come in significantly lower than them, then it will be a very difficult situation for them.

Dropping prices before the product is even released won’t be a very good look at all.

Again, it’s all going to be revealed in the next few days when AMD decide how much they want to bend us over for or if they are the saviours or PC GpU prices.

 

[aoaaron]

Margins are high, but pretty typical for tech. What is not priced in to the current margins is the future R&D costs which are increasing exponentially. This why margins have to be high so future products will be competitive.

The shareholders only care about profit, so they would be perfectly happy if lower price points lead to higher volumes, but i suspect that is not the case. Every new release the forums are full of people ranting about costs, but then AMD and Nvidia go on to sell record volumes. The market sets the price, AMD and Nvidia can only try and find the market price .


Personally i find the prices ridiculous, especially compared to a console, but i guess most people don't care that much.

Issue with consoles is it’s also become more expensive. Just still within people budgets to less toys being thrown out of the pram.

The console price has increased for a PlayStation mid cycle. The games RRP for some titles are 60-70 quid. Everything’s going up.

A PS5 years into its life span is MORE than it was at launch. That’s never happened before. Normally we’d have chunky 50-100 discount now or even a slimmer cheaper version around the corner.

 

[sewerino26]

10 days waiting............

 

[Bill Turnip]

What is not priced in to the current margins is the future R&D costs which are increasing exponentially

Good point - I think I made it previously about diminishing returns and progress getting harder, completely agree with you.

 

[Jay85]

Again, we will see with AMD’s pricing.

If they prioritise trying to shift inventory of the 30 series over selling their 40 series cards and AMD come in significantly lower than them, then it will be a very difficult situation for them.

Dropping prices before the product is even released won’t be a very good look at all.

Again, it’s all going to be revealed in the next few days when AMD decide how much they want to bend us over for or if they are the saviours or PC GpU prices.

Wonder how they will supply the UK this time, i still remember how they cut us off completely from buying "founders" cards as soon Brexit happened and it never returned.

 

[aoaaron]

Good point - I think I made it previously about diminishing returns and progress getting harder, completely agree with you.

I’d assume nvidia a r&d is much higher than amds given the machine learning, advanced features and far superior ai based upscaling.

Let’s see tho.. maybe amd have their own dlss 3.0 solution. That would be incredible.

 

[aoaaron]

Wonder how they will supply the UK this time, i still remember how they cut us off completely from buying "founders" cards as soon Brexit happened and it never returned.

I remember wanting to go AMD around launch and I couldn’t find a card at all. Then I decided to just stick with the 2080 due to 3D vision support via a driver hack.

I think stock is gonna be low all round.

Hopefully 4090s won’t be due to the price.