Caporegime
Anyways every mining GPU they make could have been a gaming GPU.
Linus just released a video on it. Agree 100%
Linus just released a video on it. Agree 100%
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Nvidia to limit hash rate of RTX3060 GPU's
- Thread starter Andromeda1983
- Start date
It's always a really bad argument, because it seeks only to shut down discussion.
It can be and is used as a tactic in many different discussions, where people can only justify X in terms of it "not being different to, or not worse than, Y".
It ignores the valid criticism of X and demands that that criticism end, until Y is addressed instead.
It's a tactic of deflection, I'm sure you can agree.
I don't agree. It's good to criticise but then calling out for banning only that one thing is... not good. Because it'll just get replaced with another, potentially even worse, thing. You tackle the problem at the root and pull it out all at once, if possible. Wasting energy is bad in general? (I don't agree with that mind you) Fine, push for politicians to make proper changes in law to tax such things heavily. Country will get more money to spend on public services and it will make such activities too expensive to bother. Otherwise it's a moot point.
Caporegime
I'm all up for crypto currency in a world where we have fusion power or everyone has huge surpluses.
But it's startrek talk, 100 years away.
Now's just a socioeconomic experiment.
But it's startrek talk, 100 years away.
Now's just a socioeconomic experiment.
Just saw it. I disagree with him on this though, I don't think ETH is going to crash as much as people think.
We already have unlimited fusion power - it's called solar energy. And we already have technology to use it. We just don't do it, yet. But it'll happen in time. Definitely faster than in 100 years, as it's already slowly happening.
It likely won't crash much, now that big corporations invest money in BTC and Eth and similar. But mining difficulty will grow up fast and sooner than later current GPUs won't be profitable to use anymore. Effect will be the same - they'll end up on second-hand market. Not with mining GPUs though - these will go to landfill and in effect harm environment. Corpo-greed.
But maybe I call for other things to be banned in other threads, just not in the crypto mining thread?
Clearly, crypto isn't the only thing I take issue with in the world. There are plenty of things I vehemently disagree with.
But I'm not going to stop criticising crypto because those other things also need to be addressed.
That's a bit like saying people shouldn't campaign for tighter road safety laws because aviation safety could also be improved...
But maybe I call for other things to be banned in other threads, just not in the crypto mining thread?
Clearly, crypto isn't the only thing I take issue with in the world. There are plenty of things I vehemently disagree with.
But I'm not going to stop criticising crypto because those other things also need to be addressed.
That's a bit like saying people shouldn't campaign for tighter road safety laws because aviation safety could also be improved...
If you do, then all good in my book.
But people answering you here can't see that so they only answer to what they see. You have to see it from the other side of the fence too, so there's no misunderstanding. I really dislike the idea of us (humanity) still using non-renewable sources of energy. But I get it it's a slow process to replace it all and it will eventually happen. Just not today and not tomorrow.I don't blame crypto for that, though, especially that done well it doesn't have to be wasteful. All you produce by mining crypto is heat. That can be recovered and re-used to for example heat-up residential areas. In that way there's literally 0 difference between mining crypto and using electric heater of the same power. Both are 100% energy efficient. In the end, it's always down to what energy source we're using and how much that is polluting - and that is what should be fixed in the end. It included electric cars as well, mind you.
Soldato
Actually @FoxEye id like to address this one a bit more. I originally replied with this:
Now, clearly I don't go through life without any principles at all, I have many. And money would not trump all of them. For example, I wouldn't murder someone for money, or do something to cause direct harm to another for money, or any number of other things.
However it is a question of balance. I operate within a set of boundaries/principles which are aligned to my situation, either financial, ethical, my upbringing, my peer group, my morals etc. We all will have this in some way and it will be different for everyone.
So lets say for example that I was poor and had the opportunity to do some mining to feed my family. Would you say that was a wrong decision for me to make?
Well how far do you go before that decision is justifiable?
- Food on the table = justifiable?
- To run my car to go to work = justifiable?
- To buy xmas presents for my kids = justifiable?
- To buy a house when i am currently renting = justifiable?
- To buy a new car when I only have an old banger = justifiable?
- To buy my wife a diamond ring - justifiable?
- To buy a yacht?
Wouldn't you say that there should be no need for this in the first place, that we should all be equal so any one person does not have any more or less than any other person (the Star Trek utopia is mostly built on this idea).
Should the boss of BP be able to afford to do all of the above through the money he has earned, but the man doing some mining on the side to make his life a little better just turn it down on principle?
Like I said in a post earlier, a sense of perspective is needed and I and others are taking objection to the fact that you seem to think crypto is for some reason not worthy of resource use.
I could just as easily state that I think whatever your interests are , are a pointless and a waste of resources.
@danlightbulb My suspicion is that none of those things will apply to most crypto miners. I would be extremely surprised if that applied to anyone here, including yourself. Although I do recall you are saving for a house/deposit from previous responses.
In a similar vein, some of the scalping groups tried to say that their members were "only reselling (scalping) to put food on the table".
It strikes me as a bogus justification that will not be true for the vast, vast majority of scalpers either. Designed to read well as PR, but not surviving much scrutiny.
I do not know your personal circumstances and I could be wrong. I wouldn't expect to be wrong in the case of the majority who are miners, here on this forum. I think the crypto income will fall into "extra hobby money" or "extra takeaway money" or the like.
This is not to say I am opposed to people earning money they don't need, solely that there is plenty of room for balancing principles with bonus income.
In a similar vein, some of the scalping groups tried to say that their members were "only reselling (scalping) to put food on the table".
It strikes me as a bogus justification that will not be true for the vast, vast majority of scalpers either. Designed to read well as PR, but not surviving much scrutiny.
I do not know your personal circumstances and I could be wrong. I wouldn't expect to be wrong in the case of the majority who are miners, here on this forum. I think the crypto income will fall into "extra hobby money" or "extra takeaway money" or the like.
This is not to say I am opposed to people earning money they don't need, solely that there is plenty of room for balancing principles with bonus income.
There is a good chance that we will all have to accept a reduction in our rampant consumption of the world's resource. You, me and all Westerners.
Frankly I don't see us having the collective will to do so, and I am extremely pessimistic about the future.
I believe we will wilfully head to our own destruction with our eyes wide open. Simply because we lack the motivation to change course.
Even as the world is ending, people will be trying to find a bigger TV to watch it on.
I dont know. I think with increasingly good solar technology we will find a way. We have a massive ball of energy chucking more energy than we could ever conceivably use at us 24/7. We just need to effectively harness that, and we are getting there.
Soldato
The examples can all be questioned of course. But the general point is who decides how much money is enough?
Just because I might not be poor, does that automatically mean I have enough and should be happy with what I have? Why aren't you holding others to that same standard (perhaps you are)? Do you hold yourself to that standard, in every part of your life (perhaps you do)?
On the subject of mining overall, as a 'thing':
- Does crypto have a future use case - yes
- Is mining itself wasteful - yes and no
- Yes it uses a lot of energy
- No, in the sense that energy is needed (at the moment) to secure the network and make the thing actually work.
- Should miners earn extra money - yes and no
- No, why do they deserve it when it is wasteful?
- Yes, because why do they NOT deserve it when other people have money based or earned on wastefulness
It will be in the first 3060 driver I assume so no older drivers to use.
They should have not said its in the driver though as I suspect someone will successfully hack it.
This is the main point really. Most of us in the western world needlessly "waste" resources doing things and buying things we don't really need or in an effort to make more money. We only need food , water, heat and shelter to survive.
So as you have said, where do we draw the line on what is a proper use of resources and who decides which pursuits/products are worthy?
Soldato
And the other factor is competition. We live in an economic system where OTHER people will always exploit opportunities. If we don't do the same we get left behind. Blame the game not the player.
@danlightbulb I think I'd say that it's not so much that "crypto is wasteful to some extent", but rather that PoW is designed to use as much energy as the world can dedicate to mining.
There's no cap on energy use where PoW is involved.
Yes, Eth is (maybe) going PoS. But we already know Eth will fork to stay on PoW when that happens (or already has). And other *coins will keep PoW. New coins will arise using PoW.
There are many PoW advocates out there who will tell you PoS is inferior for crypto. People who will tell you that "more energy use means more security".
Yes, many things are wasteful to some extent. Not many things are wasteful by design and seek to waste as much as they can.
Shouldn't we be designing for efficiency? Shouldn't we be designing for a harmonious existence with our environment?
Shouldn't we reject designs that are deliberately wasteful? Or at least try to find alternatives?
There's no cap on energy use where PoW is involved.
Yes, Eth is (maybe) going PoS. But we already know Eth will fork to stay on PoW when that happens (or already has). And other *coins will keep PoW. New coins will arise using PoW.
There are many PoW advocates out there who will tell you PoS is inferior for crypto. People who will tell you that "more energy use means more security".
Yes, many things are wasteful to some extent. Not many things are wasteful by design and seek to waste as much as they can.
Shouldn't we be designing for efficiency? Shouldn't we be designing for a harmonious existence with our environment?
Shouldn't we reject designs that are deliberately wasteful? Or at least try to find alternatives?