Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, and AMD

=XDC=FluphyBunny · 27 Dec 2013 at 14:36

LambChop said:
Why shouldnt they ? It's their hardware they can do whatever they like.

Think you missed the point been made entirely.

drunkenmaster · 27 Dec 2013 at 14:40

Rusty0611 said:
Who cares - not me!

If you're of the hippy tree hugging variety I could see this might bother you.

The thing is again though you should care, in fact you should be sending letters of complaint to Nvidia, and the guys behind the game.

Nvidia are adding tessellation to pointless degrees which is reducing YOUR performance, in an attempt to reduce AMD users performance just to a greater degree.

Are you happy that instead of paying the dev's money that comes from you(and all people who buy Nvidia products) to add tessellation in a not intentionally harmful way and in a way that genuinely improves the IQ? Because that is what is happening.

When will people realise, Nvidia are hurting their OWN performance just because they realise they can hurt AMD performance by a larger percentage. If they actually used all that power in Crysis 3 for something that actually improved the IQ, and it was fully possible to do that while also reducing performance less, because after a point more tessellation provides no IQ improvement, just a performance hit. Instead Nvidia users say things like they are happy with the worthless usage of performance hogging tessellation that hurts their OWN performance.

I can turn down tessellation in the AMD control panel to simply bypass Nvidia's attempts, however, i'd be happier for the dev's to actually add tessellation where it improves IQ, but maybe that's just me.

Maybe Nvidia users really are happy about having flat surfaces tessellated to reduce their own FPS for no reason at all.

humbug · 27 Dec 2013 at 14:48

Its pretty low life of WB to agree to Nvidia gutter tactics.

You pay you hard earned cash to WB and get sub standard support for the product because of the discrimination they hold against the GPU your using.

I would think there is a legal case for them to answer here but good luck finding the cash to fight them.

Its pretty sick what Nvidia an WB are doing.

humbug · 27 Dec 2013 at 15:12

http://community.wbgames.com/t5/General-Discussion/WB-blocking-AMD-support/td-p/100385

WB blocking AMD support.

I'm getting substandard performance on my AMD GPU with this game, i have been waiting for AMD to make some driver optimizations for this game, i found it very strange that after all this time there has been nothing from them.

After some digging around it seems thats never going to happen, Under Nvidia's instruction's, it seems, Warner Brothers are blocking AMD from making any performance optimizations.

"because AMD can’t examine or optimize the shader code, there’s no way of knowing what performance could look like. In a situation where neither the developer nor AMD ever has access to the shader code to start with, this is a valid point. Arkham Origins offers an equal performance hit to the GTX 770 and the R9 290X, but control of AMD’s performance in these features no longer rests with AMD’s driver team — it’s sitting with Nvidia.

There’s a second reason to be dubious of Arkham Origins: it pulls the same tricks with tessellation that Nvidia has been playing since Fermi launched. One of the differences between AMD and Nvidia hardware is that Nvidia has a stronger tessellation engine. In most games, this doesn’t matter, but Nvidia has periodically backed games and benchmarks that include huge amounts of tessellation to no discernible purpose. Arkham Origins is one such title."

I'm not happy about this, i paid Warner Brothers my hard earned money for a product, that product is sub standard and they are blocking my Hardware provider from fixing it.

I want to know what Warner Brothers have to say about this.

LtMatt · 27 Dec 2013 at 15:16

PhysicsMan94 · 27 Dec 2013 at 15:29

I don't see what all the fuss is about, to be honest. Had this been the other way around, I'm sure people wouldn't be making such a big deal about it.

humbug · 27 Dec 2013 at 15:32

LtMatt said:

See above Matt, i posted on Warner Brothers forum. The Implications. people paid Warner Brothers money for the product, a product they are refusing to support out of a choice which could be construed as discrimination.

Jarrastafari · 27 Dec 2013 at 15:47

Thanks for the heads up

guess a can skip Origins cause the reviews didn't really sway me either, but this does!

bru · 27 Dec 2013 at 15:52

I see after the christmas truce things have returned to normal pretty quickly.
Three things I noticed about that article.

1, It clearly states right at the beginning, neither the developers or other third parties can see into the GameWorks libraries.

In Nvidia’s GameWorks program, though, all the libraries are closed. You can see the files in games like Arkham City or Assassin’s Creed IV — the file names start with the GFSDK prefix. However, developers can’t see into those libraries to analyse or optimize the shader code. Since developers can’t see into the libraries, AMD can’t see into them either — and that makes it nearly impossible to optimize driver code.

2, The article doesn't actually say its Nvidia fault.

AMD attempted to provide Warner Bros. Montreal with code to improve Arkham Origins performance in tessellation, as well as to fix certain multi-GPU problems with the game. The studio turned down both. Is this explicitly the fault of GameWorks? No, but it’s a splendid illustration of how developer bias, combined with unfair treatment, creates a sub-optimal consumer experience.

Now understandably it is easy to read between the lines and blame Nvidia, but the actual article does not actually say it is their fault at all, as is backed up by a third snippet.

3,

And while we acknowledge that current Gameworks titles implement no overt AMD penalties

So does all this make it fair, no not really, is it the way the industry works, yes unfortunately, a lot of the major players do this sort of thing, it is the way the world goes round.

humbug · 27 Dec 2013 at 16:00

bru said:
So does all this make it fair, no not really, is it the way the industry works, yes unfortunately, a lot of the major players do this sort of thing, it is the way the world goes round.

Show me one GE Developer who refuses Nvidia access.

This is not how the Industry works, this is just Warner Brothers, thats it.

And i want to know what they have to say for themselves when they are taking peoples money before kicking them in the teeth because of what brand their GPU is.

bru · 27 Dec 2013 at 16:25

Maybe I have been misunderstood, I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that is how these things are done.

I too would like to hear WB side of the story.

LtMatt · 27 Dec 2013 at 16:33

Just incase anyone missed the link at the bottom to page 2, here it is.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...rps-power-from-developers-end-users-and-amd/2

Rusty0611 · 27 Dec 2013 at 16:35

drunkenmaster said:
The thing is again though you should care, in fact you should be sending letters of complaint to Nvidia, and the guys behind the game.

Nvidia are adding tessellation to pointless degrees which is reducing YOUR performance, in an attempt to reduce AMD users performance just to a greater degree.

Are you happy that instead of paying the dev's money that comes from you(and all people who buy Nvidia products) to add tessellation in a not intentionally harmful way and in a way that genuinely improves the IQ? Because that is what is happening.

When will people realise, Nvidia are hurting their OWN performance just because they realise they can hurt AMD performance by a larger percentage. If they actually used all that power in Crysis 3 for something that actually improved the IQ, and it was fully possible to do that while also reducing performance less, because after a point more tessellation provides no IQ improvement, just a performance hit. Instead Nvidia users say things like they are happy with the worthless usage of performance hogging tessellation that hurts their OWN performance.

I can turn down tessellation in the AMD control panel to simply bypass Nvidia's attempts, however, i'd be happier for the dev's to actually add tessellation where it improves IQ, but maybe that's just me.

Maybe Nvidia users really are happy about having flat surfaces tessellated to reduce their own FPS for no reason at all.

No - that's why you care. I shouldn't care just because you say I should care.

I don't care because I don't care. If I was getting naff performance I might be bothered but my FPS is good in everything I play so...

NightSt@lk3r · 27 Dec 2013 at 16:36

Nvidia is on its last legs, they are getting desperate and will try anything.

LtMatt · 27 Dec 2013 at 16:37

Rusty0611 said:
No - that's why you care. I shouldn't care just because you say I should care.

I don't care because I don't care. If I was getting naff performance I might be bothered but my FPS is good in everything I play so...

Furry muff but if You don't care, time to leave the thread and let people who do care discuss it.

no_1_dave · 27 Dec 2013 at 16:39

Troll thread by AMD fanboy.
Not much point hanging around here.

LtMatt · 27 Dec 2013 at 16:43

no_1_dave said:
Troll thread by AMD fanboy.
Not much point hanging around here.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Rusty0611 · 27 Dec 2013 at 16:43

LtMatt said:
Furry muff but if You don't care, time to leave the thread and let people who do care discuss it.

Was just replying to the wall of text assuming I should care and send a letter of protestation (lol) because somebody else is bothered.

The people who do care will be the same people who posted similar opinions in the Mantle thread and have already probably been over the same points. As it's Christmas and all I guess

LtMatt · 27 Dec 2013 at 16:49

Rusty0611 said:
Was just replying to the wall of text assuming I should care and send a letter of protestation (lol) because somebody else is bothered.

The people who do care will be the same people who posted similar opinions in the Mantle thread and have already probably been over the same points. As it's Christmas and all I guess

Thank god Mantle won't stop Nvidia optimizing for Directx11 though. Can you imagine the uproar if the tables were turned and suddenly Mantle being used by a developer meant that Nvidia could not provide any performance improvements or optimizations in their drivers?

Rusty0611 · 27 Dec 2013 at 16:55

LtMatt said:
Thank god Mantle won't stop Nvidia optimizing for Directx11 though. Can you imagine the uproar if the tables were turned and suddenly Mantle being used by a developer meant that Nvidia could not provide any performance improvements or optimizations in their drivers?

I'm not sure that anyone would care either except for pointing out the shoe was on the other foot now

.