Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, and AMD

[Gregster]

Cringe worthy, but fun

I honestly thought Matt was going for a Nvidia Vs AMD and AMD are the good guys thread (I have no probs with that) but seriously.... That original article is so flawed and GameWorks is an Open Standard -

‘We’ve dispatched our engineers to work onsite with top game developers and add effects, fix bugs, tweak performance, and train developers in open standards and work hand-in-hand with our game laboratory.’ NVIDIA

Read more: http://wccftech.com/nvidia-gamework...unified-gpu-physx-demonstrated/#ixzz2oxe33CDr

I posted that earlier but it seemed to have got lost in the conspiracy pool.

 

[eyetrip]

I honestly thought Matt was going for a Nvidia Vs AMD and AMD are the good guys thread (I have no probs with that) but seriously.... That original article is so flawed and GameWorks is an Open Standard -



I posted that earlier but it seemed to have got lost in the conspiracy pool.

Stop posting real information you!

It'll make this thread a far less interesting place to be

 

[Gregster]

 

[Final8y]

The problem with this is, certain folks just can't see any other option and regardless what is shown to them in benchmarks or AMD released optimizing drivers facts or any evidence, they just don't want to say "Furry muff, seems that article was wrong" or something of a similar ilk.

Facts as I see it:

• AMD released drivers that gave more performance than it's Nvidia counter parts
• Crossfire is working in the GameWorks titles
• Links showing how Nvidia work alongside game devs and teach them how the libraries work but original article said that game devs were locked out of even seeing the libraries
• The original aricles benches are massively wrong
• Batman series has generally been broken for everyone when released and requires some serious patching from WB Montreal/Rocksteady

Those stick out for me and anything else is just guessing. No company/Game developer will want to lose sales by alienating certain vendors. Game devs are artists if you like and want to see a fully polished product and would want people to enjoy their work (I would hope). This thread was silly from the off but now it is cringe worthy.

Games sales are not really effected by gpu vender features so being biased to a vender to a degree has little affect on over all sales, if the game is good and performs well then that what sells the game to the majority.

GPU vender features has a bigger effect on which cards are being bought than if a game is bought or not, but having dx10.1 patched out and in game AA disable for a particular vender may have an effect on the sale of a game if people knew before they bought which the majority would not know before hand, that's the great thing about pre order for the developer, you don't know that you are being screwed until its too late.

The amount of AMD users refusing to buy a game because it has PhysX GPU option that they cant run would be really really tiny.

 

[Gregster]

Games sales are not really effected by gpu vender features so being biased to a vender to a degree has little affect on over all sales, if the game is good and performs well then that what sells the game to the majority.

GPU vender features has a bigger effect on which cards are being bought than if a game is bought or not, but having dx10.1 patched out and in game AA disable for a particular vender may have an effect on the sale of a game if people knew before they bought which the majority would not know before hand, that's the great thing about pre order for the developer, you don't know that you are being screwed until its too late.

The amount of AMD users refusing to buy a game because it has PhysX GPU option that they cant run would be really really tiny.

Absolutely. I searched about looking for people with AMD cards and issues in Batman AO and apart from the odd PEBKAC, everyone was very pleased with it. It might be missing some smoke for AMD users but that wouldn't stop me buying the Batman games. TressFX was an example for me. It was a complete blurry mess for me (triple screens) but that didn't stop me turning off TressFX and playing the game with normal hair and still enjoying it. This forum is a different kettle of fish though and you only need to read this thread to see people say "Nvidia!!! I shan't be buying it then"

Crazy, crazy

 

[Final8y]

Absolutely. I searched about looking for people with AMD cards and issues in Batman AO and apart from the odd PEBKAC, everyone was very pleased with it. It might be missing some smoke for AMD users but that wouldn't stop me buying the Batman games. TressFX was an example for me. It was a complete blurry mess for me (triple screens) but that didn't stop me turning off TressFX and playing the game with normal hair and still enjoying it. This forum is a different kettle of fish though and you only need to read this thread to see people say "Nvidia!!! I shan't be buying it then"

Crazy, crazy

Its not just this forum, but even though they are in the minority its maybe because NV always seems to give some people reasons to dislike what they do more than AMD does.

 

[Gregster]

Its not just this forum, but even though they are in the minority its maybe because NV always seems to give some people reasons to dislike what they do more than AMD does.

Maybe. I did look on that steam survey of what people owned and stripping out Intel, I was surprised at what the top owned cards were. Something like a 560Ti and a 7850, so shows that us enthusiasts are a big minority or just haven't filled in the survey after upgrading

I am sure this whole 'hullabaloo' will come out in the wash and we can then move onto the next manly debate

 

[eyetrip]

NV always seems to give some people reasons to dislike what they do more than AMD does.

Can't argue with that

 

[Rroff]

Yes there is nothing concrete besides the library being locked and that AMD was denied in the case of this title, the rest is opinions and speculations on this particular matter, that what happens of forums, people just choose which they want to comment on and which they dont.

Its a misnomer to view the libraries as being "locked" - theres nothing different about these libraries in that regard compared to any other binary API library or statically linked library where the source code hasn't been licensed and this is a normal thing in game development with 3rd party tools like enlighten, speedtree, most physics engines, etc. etc.

 

[Final8y]

Its a misnomer to view the libraries as being "locked" - theres nothing different about these libraries in that regard compared to any other binary API library or statically linked library where the source code hasn't been licensed and this is a normal thing in game development with 3rd party tools like enlighten, speedtree, most physics engines, etc. etc.

That fact i used locked and the absolutes are irrelevant, the over all emphasis of the article is the point.

 

[Ian Evey]

That fact i used locked and the absolutes are irrelevant, the over all emphasis of the article is pointless.

Fixed

 

[LtMatt]

Nvidia Attempts To Create A Moat Around GPU Market Share With Proprietary Technologies

Other than the negative press, Nvidia is also releasing proprietary GPU technologies that will only benefit Nvidia cards; namely G Synch and GameWorks.

For more information on G Synch, read this article. I will say that this is one of the Nvidia initiatives I am paying attention to. It looks promising and could provide a moat for Nvidia if it catches.

GameWorks is more of a direct assault. GameWorks essentially provides "black box" libraries that will help developers, but also make it extremely difficult for AMD or Intel to optimize drivers to improve performance. For more information, read Joel's article. But let me draw attention to his conclusion:

In the long run, no one benefits from this kind of bifurcated market - especially not end users.

Titles that use GameWorks libraries will put AMD and Intel at a distinct disadvantage by preventing driver level optimizations after a game is launched.

Full Article
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1921341-amd-so-what-now-part-1-gvs-revenues?source=feed

 

[Rroff]

"black box" libraries do these people not realise how stupid it makes them look? - atleast do some research about the subject.

 

[Gregster]

I am still puzzled as to how AMD released optimizing drivers giving up to 35% gains with 13.11 Beta 6...

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-driver-catalyst-13.11-radeon,24876.html

As always, the driver also comes with a roundup of performance improvements which are listed below:

Batman: Arkham Origins - improves performance up to 35% with MSAA 8x enabled
Total War: Rome 2 - improves performance up to 10%
Battlefield 3 - improves performance up to 10%
GRID 2 - improves performance up to 8.5%
DiRT Showdown - improves performance up to 10%
Formula 1 2013 - improves performance up to 8%
DiRT 3 - improves performance up to 7%
Sleeping Dogs - improves performance up to 5%
The driver is available for download here, and supports Windows 7, 8, and 8.1.

 

[LtMatt]

I am still puzzled as to how AMD released optimizing drivers giving up to 35% gains with 13.11 Beta 6...

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-driver-catalyst-13.11-radeon,24876.html

I've already explained that to you Greg. Infact all your post does is back up what i said earlier in the thread.

AMD improved AA performance in Batman with that driver. GCN is more powerful than Kepler with AA activated so they can overpower the gameworks advantage and pull ahead with that feature activated. MSAA is something you don't need game code/dev cooperation for. Extreme tech are factually 100% correct.

I'll say it again for the 18th time. The part what concerns me is AMD unable to optimize for their own gpu's like you would traditionally. Having to leave Tessellation/HDAO optimization and mutli gpu scaling and performance in the hands of their rival is something which is concerning. Especially given Nvidias track record for using large amounts of unnecessary tessellation to harm amd performance as well as their own.

 

[andybird123]

Really Matt, after pages of being proven wrong you post another article that has a throw away comment aimed at nvidia?
Gameworks is not proprietary, it does run on AMD/Intel hardware, and as end user benches show the gameworks games run just as well on AMD hardware as on Nvidia, with AMD even successfully releasing driver updates for said games

I get the feeling this thread is just matt's personal chagrin at the black screen thread that is constantly on the front page

 

[LtMatt]

Really Matt, after pages of being proven wrong you post another article that has a throw away comment aimed at nvidia?
Gameworks is not proprietary, it does run on AMD/Intel hardware, and as end user benches show the gameworks games run just as well on AMD hardware as on Nvidia, with AMD even successfully releasing driver updates for said games

I get the feeling this thread is just matt's personal chagrin at the black screen thread that is constantly on the front page

Three different articles written by three different journalists now all saying the same thing. As for being proven wrong just because you or others say its wrong does not make it the case. Joel Hruska who wrote one of the articles for Extreme Tech is very respected and i certainly take his non biased, well researched opinion over yours. You're welcome to try and bring other issues with other gpu vendors into this if you want it to help support your claim, but it has no relevance to this.

 

[K1LaW8tt5]

I am still puzzled as to how AMD released optimizing drivers giving up to 35% gains with 13.11 Beta 6...

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-driver-catalyst-13.11-radeon,24876.html

Lol the answer is in your quote.

 

[Gregster]

I've already explained that to you Greg. Infact all your post does is back up what i said earlier in the thread.

lol Matt, you have not explained nothing. I asked you if you understood how DLL's work and you didn't answer. Joel stated that AMD were locked out and I have clearly shown they are not on several occasions and posted facts of which you chose to ignore.

GameWorks is an open standard. If Nvidia are saying it, I will believe that over some guys Blog in honesty and this latest article is even worse than Joel's.

You believe what you want but to see AMD outperform me on a flashed 290 in Batman: AO, this makes the OP and Joel's article look stupid.

Lol the answer is in your quote.

But AMD are locked out, so how can they release performance drivers?

 

[LtMatt]

lol Matt, you have not explained nothing. I asked you if you understood how DLL's work and you didn't answer. Joel stated that AMD were locked out and I have clearly shown they are not on several occasions and posted facts of which you chose to ignore.

GameWorks is an open standard. If Nvidia are saying it, I will believe that over some guys Blog in honesty and this latest article is even worse than Joel's.

You believe what you want but to see AMD outperform me on a flashed 290 in Batman: AO, this makes the OP and Joel's article look stupid.



But AMD are locked out, so how can they release performance drivers?

Did you try running your test without AA and just FXAA to see if the claim is correct? If performance drops massively on AMD cards then you know its correct. The only optimization AMD can do is using AA so test it without and see if what i said is true. I think you're extremely naive if you think GameWorks is open standard. Nothing Nvidia do is open standard.

But AMD are locked out, so how can they release performance drivers?

AMD improved AA performance in Batman with that driver. GCN is more powerful than Kepler with AA activated so they can overpower the gameworks advantage and pull ahead with that feature activated. MSAA is something you don't need game code/dev cooperation for.