Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, and AMD

andybird123 · 30 Dec 2013 at 08:45

nothing prevents users from turning down the NVidia specific features, as Kaap showed very early in this thread a 290X still gets higher frame rates than a Titan on like for like settings

gameworks is a set of tools developed by NVidia to add eyecandy for NVidia users, it does not prevent AMD users from running the game or getting good frame rates

the day that mantle supports NVidia cards is the day that it becomes a valid point, until then it's an entirely empty promise

Final8y · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:02

andybird123 said:
nothing prevents users from turning down the NVidia specific features, as Kaap showed very early in this thread a 290X still gets higher frame rates than a Titan on like for like settings

gameworks is a set of tools developed by NVidia to add eyecandy for NVidia users, it does not prevent AMD users from running the game or getting good frame rates

Otimizations is about trying not having to turn down the settings or setting as much to get good frame rates which AMD and developers are locked out from doing so for any other brand with gameworks because there is no separate path and the libraries are locked, that is not the case with AMD sponsored games or games that have a Mantel option.

And with the battle of the frames rates is not always about that they are both playable, many people want the one with the fastest fps in the price bracket as it gives more leeway, both NV and AMD know this.

LtMatt · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:04

andybird123 said:
nothing prevents users from turning down the NVidia specific features, as Kaap showed very early in this thread a 290X still gets higher frame rates than a Titan on like for like settings

gameworks is a set of tools developed by NVidia to add eyecandy for NVidia users, it does not prevent AMD users from running the game or getting good frame rates

the day that mantle supports NVidia cards is the day that it becomes a valid point, until then it's an entirely empty promise

Yeah i don't think you really understand Andy. Mantle will never block Nvidia from optimizing its drivers or features. Mantle will not affect Nvidia's performance in DX at all, whilst GameWorks blocks any AMD performance optimizations on DX.

Uncle Petey · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:08

Maybe if you say it one more time, Matt? Try it with capslock.

Final8y · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:09

Marine-RX179 · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:29

andybird123 said:
And when mantle comes out mantle games will show the same bias towards AMD cards

The "mantle could work on nvidia" defence is pretty thin, like when? Any dates announced for that yet?

Wait...so:

Mantle- AMD created something that "boost its own product performance" which doesn't make the performance of Nvidia products decrease in anyway since it uses a completely different path away from dx, while Nvidia can still optimise their performance of their cards for dx

GameWorks- Nvidia taking away the ability to optimise from AMD and has their performance entirely at their mercy (Crossfire scaling and support, abilitiy to bug fixing etc.)

You seriously telling me they are the "same thing"?

eyetrip · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:31

Please show me where Gameworks replaces DX11.

At work now, so can start doing some reading up on things

Uncle Petey · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:35

Who said it replaces DX11?

Marine-RX179 · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:35

eyetrip said:
Please show me where Gameworks replaces DX11.

It doesn't. You are not reading what's been said properly.

eyetrip · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:40

Oh, I was sure people had been saying over and over that Gameworks prevents AMD from making any DX11 optimisations.

For that to be the case, surely Gameworks would have to replace DX11?

Uncle Petey · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:41

Nope

LtMatt · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:41

This is what it boils down to when it comes to level of understanding of GameWorks and its implications. First look to see what gpu the poster has. Then apply the relevant picture.

Nvidia GPU

AMD GPU

andybird123 · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:42

Marine-RX179 said:
Wait...so:

Mantle- AMD created something that "boost its own product performance" which doesn't make the performance of Nvidia products decrease in anyway since it uses a completely different path away from dx, while Nvidia can still optimise their performance of their cards for dx

GameWorks- Nvidia taking away the ability to optimise from AMD and has their performance entirely at their mercy (Crossfire scaling and support, abilitiy to bug fixing etc.)

You seriously telling me they are the "same thing"?

Gameworks doesn't do any of those things either
gameworks is physx, physx flex, gi works, flameworks

If you turn off these features in game then performance comes right back up on Amd cards

Crossfire support is completely independent of gameworks

LtMatt · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:43

andybird123 said:
Gameworks doesn't do any of those things either
gameworks is physx, physx flex, gi works, flameworks

If you turn off these features in game then performance comes right back up on Amd cards

Crossfire support is completely independent of gameworks

Someone clearly didn't read.

Final8y · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:48

andybird123 said:
Gameworks doesn't do any of those things either
gameworks is physx, physx flex, gi works, flameworks

If you turn off these features in game then performance comes right back up on Amd cards

Crossfire support is completely independent of gameworks

TressFX didn't run so well on NV cards when it first came out but because its not locked the developers and NV was able to optimize there drivers for TressFX on NV cards.

Can the developer and AMD optimize there drivers for physx, physx flex, gi works, flameworks for AMD cards, no they can not.

Uncle Petey · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:49

Ed: Phew

triss · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:51

LT matt
GameWorks: Optimized for Nvidia. Prevents AMD from optimizing its drivers for DX11 games.
so AMD have Never put out a driver update for a gameworks game at all?
if they have they can clearly optimize
and btw i'm asking ,i never looked at what games the patchs for my AMD cards do

Final8y · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:52

Uncle Petey said:
Ed: Phew

LOL

LtMatt · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:53

Uncle Petey said:
For God's sake, spell-check that before Rusty gets here

triss said:
LT matt
GameWorks: Optimized for Nvidia. Prevents AMD from optimizing its drivers for DX11 games.
so AMD have Never put out a driver update for a gameworks game at all?
if they have they can clearly optimize
and btw i'm asking ,i never looked at what games the patchs for my AMD cards do

They cannot optimize via drivers/game code features like Tessellation, multi gpu scaling and performance, HBAO etc because of the closed library of GameWorks. Until this it was always possible after a game had launched for either side to optimize, with GameWorks that is only possible for Nvidia. It should be noted that even a pro AMD game dev could not optimize for AMD cards if use GameWorks library, even if they wanted to.

Final8y · 30 Dec 2013 at 09:56

LtMatt said:
They cannot optimize via drivers/game code features like Tessellation, multi gpu scaling and performance, HBAO etc because of the closed library of GameWorks. Until this it was always possible after a game had launched for either side to optimize, with GameWorks that is only possible for Nvidia.

And that's On top of what i posted, but that does not mean that AMD does not try to, but could end up with some bad side effects.
But with Tessellation we can cull it with the drivers in CCC.