• Competitor rules

    Please remember that any mention of competitors, hinting at competitors or offering to provide details of competitors will result in an account suspension. The full rules can be found under the 'Terms and Rules' link in the bottom right corner of your screen. Just don't mention competitors in any way, shape or form and you'll be OK.

Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, and AMD

Ok, I get what you guys are saying - Gameworks features are CLOSED to modifications from outside parties. I hear that, I get it, I understand it.

Here is what I am understanding - this is for PARTICULAR features (Flames/volumetric effects, Flex/physics, lighting/shadowing) and the rest of the game will still be developed using DX11, meaning AMD can still do all they want to optimise for a game.

Just like physx now. Dev can use it or not. It doesn't detract from AMD experience, except that it may sometimes run better on Nvidia. Doesn't run on AMD hardware? Up to dev not to use it.

It'd be kind of stupid for Nvidia to be too nasty here, what with AMD having all the console cake.

If they implement something which will run rubbish on console, dev's and publishers simply won't use it... if they want adoption, it is in their best interest to make this run well on all vendors hardware, and actually make the life of dev's simpler, not more difficult.

Edit:
Might it run better on Nvidia? Sure. That's almost a given.
 
eyetrip said:
Ok, I get what you guys are saying - Gameworks features are CLOSED to modifications from outside parties. I hear that, I get it, I understand it.

Here is what I am understanding - this is for PARTICULAR features (Flames/volumetric effects, Flex/physics, lighting/shadowing) and the rest of the game will still be developed using DX11, meaning AMD can still do all they want to optimise for a game.
Click to expand...

But what if those features break CF.
Everything runs great until you pull the gun trigger and you get flickering smoke or this or that because those effects are not CF compatible and AMD cant fix it because of the closed library, so what happens is that CF is disabled by default in the cf profiles.

And as i have said what if the issues are with those features that are crippling preference on AMD and not because AMD cards are just weak in that area but simply because those effects are not optimized for AMD and AMD can not optimizes the game or the drivers for them.

Just like when having PhysX high when its on the CPU but it runs great until the PhysX effects are triggered, but that ok because you can optimize the rest of the game, no as optimizing the rest of the game still does not elevate the issue.
 
Last edited:
eyetrip said:
Ok, struggling to find some Batman AO crossfire benches - below is first I could find, but trying to find some for more "official" review.

http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4698170&postcount=20

Crossfire doesn't look broken on BAO to me for this guy.

Was it broken on release?
Click to expand...

Well i can now understand why you are having a hard time understanding the full picture of the points being made and the context as you dont even understand the difference between IF and IS and that breaking CF is not exclusive to scaling.

And with that level of comprehension its just not worth the effort.
 
Last edited:
LtMatt said:
@Rusty ever wondered why Crossfire does not work at all on one of the Assassins IV games? Or why there was no crossfire when Ghosts launched yet it works fine for SLI? You need to look outside the box. If you still had an AMD card you'd realise why GameWorks is currently a bad thing for AMD users. All GameWorks titles.

EDIT

Let us not forget, another GameWorks title Splinter Cell 4 that we have to reply on Nvidia for optimizations for AMD cards...

http://tpucdn.com/reviews/MSI/R9_270X_Gaming/images/sc_blacklist_1920_1080.gif[img]

End result from Nvidias optimization? A 660TI beats out a 7970ghz edition. If people still can't see a problem here, then they must be blinded by brand loyalty.[/QUOTE]

No I'd be exactly the same opinion because I don't let my opinions be formed based on what GPU I've got in my machine. It's nothing to do with what GPU I've got. You're assuming everyone thinks along AMD / Nvidia lines again.

Regarding Splinter Cell: perhaps God forbid the AMD drivers are just not up to scratch in this game? Where does the line get drawn?
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
eyetrip said:
Oh... so all of this is about a hypothetical future. Nothing concrete, just conjecture.
Click to expand...

They are examples of what can happen and what has happened in games.

You clearly lack knowledge and experience and which further compounds that you are not worth the effort and for that reason im out in regards to you on this subject.
 
Last edited:
Rusty0611 said:
No I'd be exactly the same opinion because I don't let my opinions be formed based on what GPU I've got in my machine. It's nothing to do with what GPU I've got. You're assuming everything thinks along AMD / Nvidia lines again.

Regarding Splinter Cell: perhaps God forbid the AMD drivers are just not up to scratch in this game? Where does the line get drawn?
Click to expand...

Interesting theory. Does seem odd how it on becomes apparent in GameWorks titles though. Just coincidence i suppose, right? :D
 
Rusty0611 said:
No I'd be exactly the same opinion because I don't let my opinions be formed based on what GPU I've got in my machine. It's nothing to do with what GPU I've got. You're assuming everything thinks along AMD / Nvidia lines again.

Regarding Splinter Cell: perhaps God forbid the AMD drivers are just not up to scratch in this game? Where does the line get drawn?
Click to expand...

Indeed that is a reasonable possibility.
 
LtMatt said:
Interesting theory. Does seem odd how it on becomes apparent in GameWorks titles though. Just coincidence i suppose, right? :D
Click to expand...

Well based on Batman which was previously being used to illustrate this very point (before Tommy's bench which ridiculed that idea) it looks like there's nothing stopping AMD getting the game up to speed. Perhaps they've just decided to divert resources to bigger more popular games? Blaming Gameworks is just completely fallacious.

Final8y said:
Indeed that is a reasonable possibility.
Click to expand...

I think it is probably so but of course I am surmising. :)
 
Last edited:
Final8y said:
They are examples of what can happen and what has happened in games.

You clearly lack knowledge and experience and which further compounds that you are not worth the effort and for that reason im out in regards to you.
Click to expand...

Please, show me where this HAS happened in games?

Iv'e asked over in the black flag thread in gaming. Only one response so far on how it runs on crossfire, and apparently, wonderfully...

What I am failing to grasp.... is how these libraries are any worse than any other third party libraries developers may use.

I simply haven't seen one example of where it looks like AMD has been "crippled" in any way, and why anyone thinks this will happen in future, besides people simply working on the assumption that Nvidia will do it in future.

I accept they have been underhanded at times, and I don't like their approach to many things, but this all just strikes me as a which hunt.

I'm no fanboy. I h ave had ATI/AMD cards since X800 (with a brief stint with 7900GS SLI, before going back to AMD) all the way through til the 7000 series, having used crossfire 7950's/7970's. The only reason I went to Nvidia, was A) because I wanted a change, b) their 3D support (which wasn't even absolutely necessary)
 
Final8y said:
You clearly lack knowledge and experience and which further compounds that you are not worth the effort and for that reason im out in regards to you on this subject.
Click to expand...

Actually, I got to go for this one directly.

What knowledge and experience is it you think I am lacking?

All I want is someone to show my direct evidence that all this bad stuff is actually happening.

The only concrete thing I have seen is that WB were idiots.

Please, give me something factual to read on all these evil goings on, and I will accept.
 
It's because of the dangling argument that WB refused AMDs driver amendments, but we don't know why. This is one studio, for one game. One which wasn't that well received anyway. Pitch forks out in force because of the functionality of GameWorks which doesn't directly involve the companies direct competition.

Sounds a bit stupid doesn't it in a nutshell. There is nothing concrete, nor is there in fact any real evidence that AMD would receive the same treatment for other GamesWorks titles. We'll probably never hear from WB as to why the amendments were rejected so until we see a similar scenario in the next GameWorks title, perhaps Watch Dogs, there isn't much more to add.
 
Last edited:
MjFrosty said:
Black List isn't a GameWorks title, Matt. Says so in your initial article.
Click to expand...

Correct, not formally. However Nvidia used part of it (GameWorks) to provide the games HBAO. Probably the reason why he states a 290X is only 16% faster than a 770 in Black list.

To answer this question, I’ve spent several weeks testing Arkham Origins, Assassin’s Creed IV, and Splinter Cell: Blacklist. The last is not a formal GameWorks title, but Nvidia worked with Ubisoft to implement the game’s ambient occlusion, and early benchmarks showed a distinct advantage for Nvidia hardware when running in that mode. Later driver updates and a massive set of game patches appear to have resolved these issues; the R9 290X is about 16% faster than the GTX 770 at Ultra detail with FXAA enabled.
Click to expand...

A titan is probably 35% faster id bet, possibly more than that and 290X is generally a bit faster than a titan in most games.
 
Last edited:
MjFrosty said:
It's because of the dangling argument that WB refused AMDs driver amendments, but we don't know why. This is one studio, for one game. One which wasn't that well received anyway. Pitch forks out in force because of the functionality of GameWorks which doesn't directly involve the companies direct competition.

Sounds a bit stupid doesn't it in a nutshell. There is nothing concrete, nor is there in fact any real evidence that AMD would receive the same treatment for other GamesWorks titles. We'll probably never hear from WB as to why the amendments were rejected so until we see a similar senario in the next GameWorks title, perhaps Watch Dogs, there isn't much more to add.
Click to expand...

Yes there is nothing concrete besides the library being locked and that AMD was denied in the case of this title, the rest is opinions and speculations on this particular matter, that what happens of forums, people just choose which they want to comment on and which they dont.
 
Last edited:
LtMatt said:
Correct, not formally. However Nvidia used part of it (GameWorks) to provide the games HBAO. Probably the reason why he states a 290X is only 16% faster than a 770 in Black list.



A titan is probably 35% faster id bet, possibly more than that and 290X is generally a bit faster than a titan in most games.
Click to expand...

If you're having performance issues in Black List I'd suggest using the 13.12 drivers as they have performance improvements.

Seeing as the 290X wasn't even available when the game launched it's no surprise there might be room for improvement on a brand new GPU.
 
Final8y said:
Yes there is nothing concrete besides the library being locked and that AMD denied in the case of this title, the rest is opinions and speculations, that what happens of forums.
Click to expand...

The problem with this is, certain folks just can't see any other option and regardless what is shown to them in benchmarks or AMD released optimizing drivers facts or any evidence, they just don't want to say "Furry muff, seems that article was wrong" or something of a similar ilk.

Facts as I see it:

  • AMD released drivers that gave more performance than it's Nvidia counter parts
  • Crossfire is working in the GameWorks titles
  • Links showing how Nvidia work alongside game devs and teach them how the libraries work but original article said that game devs were locked out of even seeing the libraries
  • The original aricles benches are massively wrong
  • Batman series has generally been broken for everyone when released and requires some serious patching from WB Montreal/Rocksteady
  • GameWorks is an Open Standard and game devs are being taught how to use it from Nvidia's game developers

Those stick out for me and anything else is just guessing. No company/Game developer will want to lose sales by alienating certain vendors. Game devs are artists if you like and want to see a fully polished product and would want people to enjoy their work (I would hope). This thread was silly from the off but now it is cringe worthy.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom