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Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, and AMD

How do you turn off the GameWorks 'feature' that sees a 660 beating a 7950 boost? Or a 290X losing to a 770? I'm pretty sure you can't as only Nvidia can optimise for that part, unlike amd or the dev.

You as bad as me - thought you were quitting here for now :D

Anyway, on to your point. Maybe Nvidia's performance in comparison to AMD on Batman AO has nothing to do with Gameworks?

Maybe it's just AMD's bad drivers? :D

No, seriously though, you can't say without a doubt that it has anything to do with Gameworks. You can make assumptions around it, of course...

But maybe it's more to do with Warner messing AMD around.

How old are those benches anyway? Too lazy to go back and find the post/source...


Physx is designed with Nvidia GPU's in mind, but not tied to it :)
 
Currently it is still proprietary though, until such a time other vendors choose to use it. I can't see it being free though.

Also if AMDs PR on twitter have gotten that wrong it goes a stretch to other things being posted. More to the point the comments made regarding the WB situation. With my close ties and experiences with ASUS PR teams, they tend to not have much technical insight at all other than what they're being told.
 
You as bad as me - thought you were quitting here for now :D

Anyway, on to your point. Maybe Nvidia's performance in comparison to AMD on Batman AO has nothing to do with Gameworks?

Maybe it's just AMD's bad drivers? :D

No, seriously though, you can't say without a doubt that it has anything to do with Gameworks. You can make assumptions around it, of course...

But maybe it's more to do with Warner messing AMD around.

How old are those benches anyway? Too lazy to go back and find the post/source...



Physx is designed with Nvidia GPU's in mind, but not tied to it :)

Lol i had good intentions but you know how people like to drag you back in. :D To be fair i wanted to reply to Uber as he asked a genuine question. Its a waste of time replying to most though.

The only change is removing AA, which does go hand in hand with what AMD said. That their driver added 35% more performance to AA which allowed them to overpower the GameWorks advantage via brute force and take the lead.

It may well be the drivers, after all GameWorks has limited the optimisations that AMD can provide for it. Because of GameWorks AMD or the dev cannot apply any quick fixes to correct things, only Nvidia can. This has all been explained in the article and discussed previously though.

AMD is no longer in control of its own performance. While GameWorks doesn’t technically lock vendors into Nvidia solutions, a developer that wanted to support both companies equally would have to work with AMD and Nvidia from the beginning of the development cycle to create a vendor-specific code path. It’s impossible for AMD to provide a quick after-launch fix.

This kind of maneuver ultimately hurts developers in the guise of helping them. Even if the developers at Ubisoft or WB Montreal wanted to help AMD improve its performance, they can’t.

Physx is tied to Nvidia gpu's so much so it smells a AMD gpu is the same room it goes into full retreat lol. :p

Currently it is still proprietary though, until such a time other vendors choose to use it. I can't see it being free though.

Also if AMDs PR on twitter have gotten that wrong it goes a stretch to other things being posted. More to the point the comments made regarding the WB situation. With my close ties and experiences with ASUS PR teams, they tend to not have much technical insight at all other than what they're being told.

AMD changed tack regarding that. Initially they said it would be GCN only, that excluded older AMD cards as well. Then they said all cards will be able to support it, but GCN may benefit the most. This is a good thing and should be applauded. Supporting older AMD gpu's like cayman and even Nvidia gpus is a good step towards making Mantle a success.
 
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How do you turn off the GameWorks 'feature' that sees a 660 beating a 7950 boost? Or a 290X losing to a 770? I'm pretty sure you can't as only Nvidia can optimise for that part, unlike amd or the dev.

as has been mentioned many many times, it ISN'T a gameworks feature that does that, all of the gameworks features can be turned off, what remains is FXAA and the game itself, FXAA can be turned off and you can even use SMAA in it's place

the article and your blind belief in everything it says only proves that on ONE particular set of settings is there a problem

the article itself even says that it cannot be proven that it is a gameworks feature that causes this

Can this be traced directly back to GameWorks? Technically, no it can’t — all of our feature-specific tests showed the GTX 770 and the R9 290X taking near-identical performance hits with GameWorks features set to various detail levels. If DX11 Enhanced Ambient Occlusion costs the GTX 770 10% of its performance, it cost the R9 290X 10% of its performance.

you keep quoting me and responding to small snippets of what I've said whilst completely ignoring the actual main point of my posts

you also keep saying that a 660 beating a 7950 is bad, but a 7870 beating a 680 is perfectly ok, standards, double, much?

you've even linked to statements by AMD themselves where they admit that tressfx 1.0 was buggy and poorly optimised
 
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The initial slides from Hawaii show it isn't specifically tied though, so unless Robert tweeted that before the event? Which is highly unlikely.

It's not a big deal as I doubt we will see Mantle on Nvidia hardware at any point, but I could be wrong. It's just the argument that Mantle is 'open' is very much a wavering point and I wouldn't go as far as to call it such being that at heart, it is built on and for GCN. Digressing slightly but it's definitely a fair point if people are going to jump down Nvidia's throat for Gameworks. Which is still very new and NV need to clarify points being made by WCCF.

Unfortunately NV PR is fairly inactive compared to AMD which is irritating. Please don't try to read anything into that though, I don't think I could cope lol.
 
as has been mentioned many many times, it ISN'T a gameworks feature that does that, all of the gameworks features can be turned off, what remains is FXAA and the game itself, FXAA can be turned off and you can even use SMAA in it's place

the article and your blind belief in everything it says only proves that on ONE particular set of settings is there a problem

the article itself even says that it cannot be proven that it is a gameworks feature that causes this

you keep quoting me and responding to small snippets of what I've said whilst completely ignoring the actual main point of my posts

In Arkham Origins, the following Gameworks libraries are used:

GFSDK_GSA
GFSDK_NVDOF_LIB (Depth of Field)
GFSDK_PSM
GFSDK_ShadowLib (Soft shadows)
GFSDK_SSAO (Ambient Occlusion)

Clearly the GW library loadout is customized and tailored depending on the title. These are the libraries and functions AMD cannot optimize. The fact that AMD can optimize the game and improve performance 35% due to other changes does not change the fact that GW-specific changes are locked out.

you also keep saying that a 660 beating a 7950 is bad, but a 7870 beating a 680 is perfectly ok, standards, double, much?

As quoted previously, that was due to Nvidia drivers and Nvidia had the chance to work with the dev after the games launch to fix the issues. Something which dev nor gpu vendor is unable to do with GameWorks unless the vendor in question is Nvidia. If you can't see the problem there, theres no hope for you at all.

We’ve been working closely with NVIDIA to address the issues experienced by some Tomb Raider players. In conjunction with this patch, NVIDIA will be releasing updated drivers that help to improve stability and performance of Tomb Raider on NVIDIA GeForce GPUs. We are continuing to work together to resolve any remaining outstanding issues. We recommend that GeForce users update to the latest GeForce 314.21 drivers (posting today) for the best experience in Tomb Raider.
 
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but exactly the same can be said of TressFX - it is a library, AMD do not give out the source code of this library to devs or to competitors, Nvidia are in exactly the same position in regards being able to opitimise for it, this article claiming otherwise is just bad journalism

and mantle, AMD are not going to give Nvidia the source code for mantle, they get the interface specs from AMD and that is it, mantle itself is a closed black box that Nvidia can do nothing about changing the code of

TressFX works just as well on Nvidia cards as it does on AMD cards because AMD have left it open for Nvidia or Devs to optimise on Nvidia cards.

TWIMTBP Titles do not work as well on AMD cards as it does on Nvidia because Nvidia have locked AMD and Devs out, that is the difference.

AMD have said Mantle will be available to all, this includes Nvidia. if and when AMD lock Nvidia out then i would criticize AMD for it.

AMD don't lock anyone out of anything, Nvidia do it all the time, lots of people think thats a very bad thing and they are critical of Nvidia for it. and rightfully so.
AMD for whatever reason develop tech that improves the Gaming experience for everyone regardless of GPU colour, Nvidia want to use tech advancement to lock people in, this in my any many pepole opinon is low life.
 
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Let's call a truce!

We will all agree that Matt, Humbug, Petey, et al, are all wrong, and get on with our lives... yeah?

:D :D :D

Look, end of day, only way we will know if there is ever going to be a problem here is to see what happens in future.

In this day and age, companies aren't able to hide their dirty tricks. So if it turns out there is some dirty work going on, it will out.

Edit: please note, I never said there wasn't some hidden agenda here, just that there is no evidence to really support that theory.

Handled properly, I can see Gameworks being a benefit to both camps. Handled properly, that is.
 
As quoted previously, that was due to Nvidia drivers and Nvidia had the chance to work with the dev after the games launch to fix the issues. Something which dev nor gpu vendor is unable to do with GameWorks unless the vendor in question is Nvidia. If you can't see the problem there, theres no hope for you at all.



Stop saying that, because you don't know that. You're having to repeat yourself because you're not backing up what you're saying other than with what WCCF are saying. Which is exactly why my first post was basically "until we know more."
 
Stop saying that, because you don't know that. You're having to repeat yourself because you're not backing up what you're saying other than with what WCCF are saying.

ExtremeTech say that. Wccftech say that. Seeking Alpha say that. Its not my fault you don't like it or don't believe its true. I can promise you it is. If you don't believe me, fine. Lets just leave it there. :)
 
Let's call a truce!

We will all agree that Matt, Humbug, Petey, et al, are all wrong, and get on with our lives... yeah?

:D :D :D

Look, end of day, only way we will know if there is ever going to be a problem here is to see what happens in future.

In this day and age, companies aren't able to hide their dirty tricks. So if it turns out there is some dirty work going on, it will out.

Edit: please note, I never said there wasn't some hidden agenda here, just that there is no evidence to really support that theory.

Handled properly, I can see Gameworks being a benefit to both camps. Handled properly, that is.

I'm not happy about a company using tech advancement to lock you into their product which they then also charge you over the odds for.

I understand this is business and Nvidia think its good business, they may well be right, that does not mean i have to like it or like them for it, i don't care about how much money their investors make, and i'm one of them in a very very tiny portion.

All i care about is getting new and better things without having to pay for it financially as well as with my freedom of choice.

personally i can't understand how anyone in this room could be defensive toward Nvidia for that. As i said before, if AMD did this i would be just as critical of them.
 
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ExtremeTech say that. Wccftech say that. Seeking Alpha say that. Its not my fault you don't like it or don't believe its true. I can promise you it is. If you don't believe me, fine. Lets just leave it there. :)

They don't say that. FFS Matt, look:

However as ET points out, (put down those pitchforks and listen) you CANNOT logically conclude this as a result of GameWorks.

You read what you want to read. As everyone who has been trying to tell you nobody actually knows exactly what AMD are allowed to do yet. You've drawn your own conclusion. It's speculative reading at it's very finest and you are taking it at it's word.

STOP taking it at it's word. Cannot is spelt quite clearly in capitals.
 
I'm not happy about a company using tech advancement to lock you into their product which they then also charge you over the odds for.

I understand this is business and Nvidia think its good business, they may well be right, that does not mean i have to like it or like them for it, i don't care about how much money their investors make, and i'm one of them in a very very tiny portion.

All i care about is getting new and better things without having to pay for it financially as well as with my freedom of choice.

As i said before, if AMD did this i would be just as critical of them.

I am not a big fan of prorietary stuff myself, and to be honest, it's one of the reasons I avoided Nvidia for a long time.

It's the same reason I avoided Sony stuff for a long time.

Particularly, with Nvidia, the likes of Physx and G-sync. Physx could have been fantastic, had they been more open with it.

G-sync? Well, I simply won't buy a monitor that ties me to a particular GPU vendor. Simple as...

Why did I go Nvidia? I simply fancied a change last year after so many years with AMD, and 3D support is a bit less hassle.

Why did I stick with Nvidia this year? I just found the overall experience with Nvidia to be really good. Just less hassle, and no hardware issues at all.

Where GW is concerned though, I honestly am not concerned for AMD users right now. Maybe it will turn out to be this nasty thing you guys are worried about, but if that's the case, then it won't see much adoption... meaning, at best, we get occasional eye candy benefits.

EDIT:
Also, please note that Flex will have a direct compute path, which means it should work just fine on AMD hardware. In theory. And I hope that turns out to be true.
 
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TressFX works just as well on Nvidia cards as it does on AMD cards because AMD have left it open for Nvidia or Devs to optimise on Nvidia cards.

TWIMTBP Titles do not work as well on AMD cards as it does on Nvidia because Nvidia have locked AMD and Devs out, that is the difference.

AMD have said Mantle will be available to all, this includes Nvidia. if and when AMD lock Nvidia out then i would criticize AMD for it.

AMD don't lock anyone out of anything, Nvidia do it all the time, lots of people think thats a very bad thing and they are critical of Nvidia for it. and rightfully so.
AMD for whatever reason develop tech that improves the Gaming experience for everyone regardless of GPU colour, Nvidia want to use tech advancement to lock people in, this in my any many pepole opinon is low life.


how is tressfx open? it is a library the same as the gameworks libraries, AMD have not given the source code to NVidia (which is what people seem to be asking of gameworks)

it also makes a 7870 equal with a GTX680 which happens in no other game I can easily find, so how does it run "just as well" on NVidia hardware?
that is exactly the same as the accusations being levelled at NVidia gameworks, despite the 290X still being faster than a titan

the game works features that are being criticised here run on both vendors hardware, AMD are not being "locked out" of this library any more than they are of others and Nvidia are from the tressfx library or the source code of mantle

the article even states that turning on and off the gameworks features gives the same increase or decrease in performance on both vendors, so how can it be gameworks features that are causing the problem?
 
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I'm done repeating myself over and over.

Read the ET article but most importantly read the comments section. The author explains why that is the case.

As quoted previously, that was due to Nvidia drivers and Nvidia had the chance to work with the dev after the games launch to fix the issues. Something which dev nor gpu vendor is unable to do with GameWorks unless the vendor in question is Nvidia. If you can't see the problem there, theres no hope for you at all.
 
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I am not a big fan of prorietary stuff myself, and to be honest, it's one of the reasons I avoided Nvidia for a long time.

It's the same reason I avoided Sony stuff for a long time.

Particularly, with Nvidia, the likes of Physx and G-sync. Physx could have been fantastic, had they been more open with it.

G-sync? Well, I simply won't buy a monitor that ties me to a particular GPU vendor. Simple as...

Why did I go Nvidia? I simply fancied a change last year after so many years with AMD, and 3D support is a bit less hassle.

Why did I stick with Nvidia this year? I just found the overall experience with Nvidia to be really good. Just less hassle, and no hardware issues at all.

Where GW is concerned though, I honestly am not concerned for AMD users right now. Maybe it will turn out to be this nasty thing you guys are worried about, but if that's the case, then it won't see much adoption... meaning, at best, we get occasional eye candy benefits.

EDIT:
Also, please note that Flex will have a direct compute path, which means it should work just fine on AMD hardware. In theory. And I hope that turns out to be true.

AMD had shocking Drivers back when i had a 6950, no doubt about that.
Having said that AMD got a lot of stick for bad drivers back then, and rightfully so, they have worked very hard to improve things. and improve things they have.
For about a year now AMD's Driver have been just as solid and stable as Nvidia's, infact Nvidia had some problems last year with their drivers where AMD didn't.

As For PhysX, the only game i was impressed with that was Borderlands 2. but thats one game.

The problem with PhysX is that it is prorietary, overall Devs have very little interest in it, it seems to me 99% of them have no inclination to do anything serious with it, if they even bother with it at all.
'Physics' is actually used a lot in games, BF3/4 Crysis 3, even Farcry 3 has a lot of Physics in it, you shoot at wooden crates they break up in to splinters flying about, spark flying about when shooting at metal objects.
You don't need Nvidia PhysX to have those sort of effects in games, it may not look as good. but its improving all the time.
I cannot help but feel that if Nvidia PhysX was an open API very wide uptake will have happened, and Devs will have done far more with it.
As it stands i'm not paying over the odds for a lesser GPU just to have effects in the odd game here or there that you see in every other game, only a little less pretty, though i would argue that what you see in BF4 is more impressive than anything i have ever seen in an Nvidia title.

G-Sync, i think that can be done without the cost implications, and i think AMD will do exactly that.

Oh, PS: TressFX is Physics.
 
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Firstly,

He's said there that it's impossible, which is an absolute - for AMD to apply a quick after launch fix.

Stay with me. AMD released a driver which fixed multi sampling performance.
13.11 beta
​Batman: Arkham Origins - improves performance up to 35% with MSAA 8x enabled

35% improvement when using 8X MSAA. 35% is a huge chunk of performance. Performance which is gained entirely with multi sampling alone. Changes made outside of Gameworks as you've been so keen to point out up until now.

Also whilst on the subject of poor AA performance:
Call of Duty®: Ghosts - Improves anti-aliasing performance, and updates the AMD CrossFire™ profile

So not only were AMD able to update their crossfire profile, but also improve AA performance in this title also in a separate engine (GameWorks is engine specific).



I refer back to my premature drivers comment regarding the above.

Even if the developers at Ubisoft or WB Montreal wanted to help AMD improve its performance, they can’t.

Clearly a blanket statement as they have no evidence to back this up. The whole thing is very well written so credit where it's due.

And while we acknowledge that current Gameworks titles implement no overt AMD penalties,

So again, they're working on the assumption of the WB scenario leading you on to believe that it's going to possibly reoccur.

You're being lead on because frankly I think it's what you want to hear. It's been fun but time to move on for me.
 
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Edit: MAtt, this was quoted from one of you recent posts, which I see you have now removed.

If Nvidia decides to stop supporting older GPUs in a future release, game developers won’t be able to implement their own solutions without starting from scratch and building a new version of the library from the ground up.

The libraries are installed with the game, as a file, which the developer has full control over.

If game is developed/installed with version 1, then the version 1 file is what is installed.

If Nvidia were to update to version 1.5, which suddenly drops support for old cards, the dev never need to patch the game to that version.

Nvidia can't suddenly make the game stop working with the old version.

And then we are in a position where dev's will know the new version is not supported on older hardware, and so if they are cutting out a large portion of their income, they simply won't implement it.

None of this having to go back and re-write anything.
 
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