***Official 2010 F1 thread***

FrankJH said:
couldnt possibly comment :D

but "can open, worms everywhere" comes to mind lol

I wouldnt be too hard on Vettel either- only one DNF was his fault as such (Australia) otherwise it was engine failures I think which is hardly his fault imo, just really unlucky
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I assume by worms, you refer to my tongue in cheek comments on Hamilton?! :p

Vettel showed signs of inexperience this year, and it's cost him dear. No doubt his time will come, and he's shown weekends of total dominance this year, but he did make some rookie errors:

Not only did the avoidable Kubica accident cost him 6 valuable points, but the resulting grid penalty for trying to finish on 3 wheels cost him 10 places on the Malaysian grid, where he could again have scored a potential podium (6 more points). He then crashed out of 2nd place at Monaco (8 points lost), made a mistake, losing the lead to Button at Turkey before finishing 3rd (arguably 4 more points lost).

Add those 24 "thrown away" points onto Vettel's scorecard, and he would have been world champion.
 
FrankJH said:
Im sure someone will come along to massage the facts (just like politicians do with polling numbers) to make it look a lot worse........surnama? lol
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OK. I shall give it my best.

timbob said:
He [Button] also consistently made good forward progress in races, with a number of decisive overtaking moves - potentially more than any other driver this year, though that is speculation and guesswork, happy to be corrected!
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This probably is true, but only because in the 2nd half of the season he as so bad at qualifying and therefore, in a very good car, was always likely to move up the field, even without overtaking on the track and letting his fuel strategy move him forward.

With regards to Button not making any mistakes: this is true, however, we might also postulate that the reason why he didnt make any mistakes was because he wasn't pushing hard enough. This lack of "push" allowed Barrichello to outscore him in the 2nd half of the season.
 
sunama said:
This probably is true, but only because in the 2nd half of the season he as so bad at qualifying and therefore, in a very good car, was always likely to move up the field, even without overtaking on the track and letting his fuel strategy move him forward.
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Doesnt disguise the fact that Button was also faster on race day on all but one occasion (Valencia), and that has nothing at all to do with grid position (and if anything starting further back would normally hinder your pace rather than making it easier)


sunama said:
With regards to Button not making any mistakes: this is true, however, we might also postulate that the reason why he didnt make any mistakes was because he wasn't pushing hard enough. This lack of "push" allowed Barrichello to outscore him in the 2nd half of the season.
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you can "postulate" all you like ;) but with the well recorded temp problems especially in the two or three races straight after Turkey, Barrichello was always going to benefit due to his more aggressive /less smooth driving style generating more heat

You also have to consider Ruben's sensitivity to team orders after the MS years - everyone saw how he blew up a couple of times this year with little to no factual evidence to support his arguement. Imagine what would have happened in several races in the mid season where Jenson was directly behind him but found it impossible to pass (being in the same car thats isnt really surprising) - but even though team could have lost several additional points it was virtually impossible for the team to ask Rubens to move over (however its done, even if its not allowed - its still done), even though Jenson was faster on the day
 
sunama said:
With regards to Button not making any mistakes: this is true, however, we might also postulate that the reason why he didnt make any mistakes was because he wasn't pushing hard enough. This lack of "push" allowed Barrichello to outscore him in the 2nd half of the season.
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Only you, sunama, could turn 'not making mistakes' into 'not pushing hard enough'. I would point out that despite 'not pushing hard enough' he still won the world title with a race to spare. Seems to me like he had plenty left in reserve for that second half of the year, even though the car had hit the brick wall at the end of its development cycle thanks to the compromises made to install the Mercedes engine.

Yes, Barrichello outscored him in the second 8 races of the season. By 6 points. However, Button outscored Barrichello by 23 points in the first 8 races. I'm no mathematical genius, but 23 seems a lot higher than 6 to me. I think that might be why Button is now 2009 Formula One World Champion.
 
Ha, sunama's arguments are getting more and more spurious by the day! At least sunama recognises that Button didn't even have to push very hard to win the championship with a race in hand. A lesser driver might have had to push to the limits to achieve the same.
 
clv101 said:
Ha, sunama's arguments are getting more and more spurious by the day! At least sunama recognises that Button didn't even have to push very hard to win the championship with a race in hand. A lesser driver might have had to push to the limits to achieve the same.
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like a certain Lewis Hamilton leaving it to the last corner of the last race (with an extra race on top due to the longer calander in 2008) :D


but noooooooo its all to do with the quality of the competition - and what the individual cars are like at the beginning of the season, its sooooooooooooo obvious hahaha
 
JRS said:
Only you, sunama, could turn 'not making mistakes' into 'not pushing hard enough'. I would point out that despite 'not pushing hard enough' he still won the world title with a race to spare. Seems to me like he had plenty left in reserve for that second half of the year, even though the car had hit the brick wall at the end of its development cycle thanks to the compromises made to install the Mercedes engine.
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I don't think I've ever said that Button was anything but a driving well in the first half of the season. To win 6 out of 7 races is near record breaking standards. I think only MS has done better.

The problem came in the 2nd half of the season (not the first) and during that 2nd half of the season, Barrichello was able to score more points - plain and simple, despite Barrichello having dodgy pitstops and punctures, which allowed Button to finish ahead of him (when on merit, Barrichello should've finished ahead of Button).

JRS said:
Yes, Barrichello outscored him in the second 8 races of the season. By 6 points. However, Button outscored Barrichello by 23 points in the first 8 races. I'm no mathematical genius, but 23 seems a lot higher than 6 to me. I think that might be why Button is now 2009 Formula One World Champion.
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Barrichello simply isnt world championship material. If you look at 2005, when the Ferrari car was bad and MS had to push the car to the limit, MS left Barrichello in the dust and outscored him heavily. This is an inidication of just how far behind Barrichello was/is. Yes, Button beat him, but IMO thats not a big deal. Should Button goto McLaren (which we know he wont), Button will demolished. :p
 
sunama said:
The problem came in the 2nd half of the season (not the first) and during that 2nd half of the season, Barrichello was able to score more points - plain and simple, despite Barrichello having dodgy pitstops and punctures, which allowed Button to finish ahead of him (when on merit, Barrichello should've finished ahead of Button).
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90% of the time Button actually ended up having longer pitstops (when they where on equal strategies or nose to tail in the race, so sorry that point doesnt wash at all

Its also proven (just like Brazil) that Barrichello was a lot slower in the races than Jenson throughout the year - even on heavier fuel loads, so no "merit" deserved there either, however you want to view it


sunama said:
Should Button goto McLaren (which we know he wont), Button will demolished. :p
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There is absolutely NO proof of that in an equal car Button couldnt stand up to Lewis on the track. Lewis isnt that kind to his tyres and he isnt that much of a fan of heavy fuel loads - proven in numerous races this year (exactly the opposite to Jenson), both of which will be crucial next year

The only way Lewis would get ahead is by being McLaren's favourite son and getting preferential treatment within the team

Highly unlikely this McLaren "super Brit" team will happen so it wont ever get proven but its not as automatic as you presume
 
sunama said:
Barrichello simply isnt world championship material. If you look at 2005, when the Ferrari car was bad and MS had to push the car to the limit, MS left Barrichello in the dust and outscored him heavily.
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Somehow I doubt RB had the same car as MS and even if the parts were the same the car might have been setup/adjusted to suit MS more.
 
FrankJH said:
90% of the time Button actually ended up having longer pitstops (when they where on equal strategies or nose to tail in the race, so sorry that point doesnt wash at all
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Right. This is really bugging me, Frank, as you have used 'where' in place of 'were' on numerous occassions.

When you write 'where', what you really mean to write is 'were'.

In most cases, 'where' is used when asking a question.

:)
 
FrankJH said:
The only way Lewis would get ahead is by being McLaren's favourite son and getting preferential treatment within the team
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I can see you're a Button fan, but you have to be realistic. Hamilton will go on to win multiple WDCs. Button - well, he's won one and that's his lot. You can't compare the 2 drivers. I would say Massa is comparable to Button.

With regards to Hamilton getting preferential treatment at McLaren: while Hamilton remains at McLaren, this will always be the case. This was established in 2007, when even the reigning World Champion was being sidelined by Team Hamilton, even though Hamilton was in his rookie season.
 
sunama said:
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With regards to Hamilton getting preferential treatment at McLaren: while Hamilton remains at McLaren, this will always be the case. This was established in 2007, when even the reigning World Champion was being sidelined by Team Hamilton, even though Hamilton was in his rookie season.
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This is your opinion; it is not a statement of fact . . . unless you have some inside information that you feel able to share :confused:
 
stockhausen said:
This is your opinion; it is not a statement of fact . . . unless you have some inside information that you feel able to share :confused:
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The facts are that Alonso while at McLaren, after the Hungarian GP was not on speaking terms with most people including his boss. Thats a fact.

Hamilton on the other hand was being treated like the prodigal son.

I would say that the above is clear evidence of Hamilton recieving preferential treatment over Alonso.

To bring it closer to home, imagine you work with your boss and John, in a single office. John and your boss get on like a house on fire. When the boss walks in, John gets a greeting from the boss, while you are blanked. In effect, this is what was happening after the Hungarian GP to Alonso.
 
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