***Official 2010 F1 thread***

[dannyjo22]

The point was that Brawn HAD to make a decision to shift major focus to the 2010 car. dannyjo22 said that Brawn didn't have the resources to compete with the bigger teams hence forcing them to choose between current car and 2010 car. Other teams could split development easier as they had more resources.

That is exactly it. They had to make a choice from turkey onwards to focus on the 2010 car. A big team doesn't have those worries. It almost cost a drivers title to Red Bull. Infact it would have cost them had the red bull been as reliable as the Brawn.

A big team would not give up developement of a car in a title challenge to focus on next years, you said yourself Frank they gave up on it for 4 months.

Then you have the fact that the one big update package they developed upset the car and they had to go back to day one.

After having won a title and looking for the best package for the future that would concern me as a driver. Also that asking for an extra 3 million seems to be an issue of huge proportions would worry me that the team didn't have the funds in place to mount a serious challenge for next year.

Also that the factory isn't exactly happy their bonus payments were stopped would concern me.

 

[dannyjo22]

Except we have seen (case in point - Ferrari and McLaren 2008/2009) that having a big budget and being a "big" team does not mean you will be able to split resources and develop next year's car to be a winner out of the box.

Frankly it's because those big teams got ****ed over with KERS. They spent all the money while the others didn't play ball.

I hope one of them breaks the gentlemens agreement next year and turns up with a car 2 seconds faster than the rest with KERS and listens to them all whine.

 

[clv101]

I expect we'll see at least couple of KERRs cars in 2010.

 

[tonyyeb]

Except we have seen (case in point - Ferrari and McLaren 2008/2009) that having a big budget and being a "big" team does not mean you will be able to split resources and develop next year's car to be a winner out of the box.

Not quite. McLaren thought there was benefit in developing the 2009 car until it was a winning car thinking it would help the 2010 car. Ferrari decided early that the 2009 car was not going to be competitive and switched most of their resources to 2010. This was mainly due to wanting to possibly copy Red Bulls suspension and the Brawn double diffuser more accurately (see below) rather than just a fudge as some teams ended up doing (Renault and BMW for example).

This is the principle reason that Ferrari stopped development of its 2009 challenger – an overhaul of the suspension was required for the double diffuser to work properly.

Ferrari knew that if they only say did a 50/50 split on 2009/2010 and then didn't win anything in 2010, the Ferrari board would not be amused. They made the bold decision that 2009 was a no go, and they HAD to win something in 2010.

The difference between Brawn switching 90% to 2010 and Ferrari doing the same is that Ferrari are switching £150m+ of resources, and Brawn less than half that.

 

[tonyyeb]

I expect we'll see at least couple of KERRs cars in 2010.

The cars we're hard enough to design with KERS in mind when they had 60-80 litres of fuel on board. I doubt any team is realistically thinking "Lets design our 2010 car with the thought of possibly adding KERS at some point." It isn't something you can just bolt on. That is why the people who started 2009 with KERS were the only people ever to use it in 2009 (McLare, Ferrari, Renault and BMW).

With the bigger fuel tanks, weight distribution on the longer wheelbase cars is going to be talking point of 2010 pre season testing.

 

[Lopéz]

Not quite. McLaren thought there was benefit in developing the 2009 car until it was a winning car thinking it would help the 2010 car. Ferrari decided early that the 2009 car was not going to be competitive and switched most of their resources to 2010.

That's not what I was getting at - I'm not talking about development through 2009.
You said that big teams like Ferrari and McLaren could split their resources between the current car and next year's car better than Brawn will have been able to this year.
Yet both McLaren and Ferrari failed to do this in 2008 ready for 2009.

 

[tonyyeb]

That's not what I was getting at - I'm not talking about development through 2009.
You said that big teams like Ferrari and McLaren could split their resources between the current car and next year's car better than Brawn will have been able to this year.
Yet both McLaren and Ferrari failed to do this in 2008 ready for 2009.

No, you're not getting it. Splitting resources when you are not even winning races yet is different to focussing MOST of your efforts on the current championship. And I was just talking about how things were done in 2009, not 2008.

In 2009, Brawn took the risk of moving his LIMITED resources to 2010 in the hope his 2009 car would be good enough to keep Jenson and the team ahead in both championships. Given the huge lead after Turkey, if McLaren were in the same position they may have done the same just on a much larger scale. Meaning they would have had little problem keeping their points scoring good enough to beat the next best team.

 

[Glaucus]

It would be suicidal for button to move to Mclaren.

No reason why Brawn can not get a 2010 winning car. They held back on development this year because the McLaren engine was not designed for the car and as such was shoe horned in and stopped a lot of possible development. They will also have proper investment next year, maybe even Mercedes. He should certainly stay put.

In 2009, Brawn took the risk of moving his LIMITED resources to 2010 in the hope his 2009 car would be good enough to keep Jenson and the team ahead in both championships. Given the huge lead after Turkey, if McLaren were in the same position they may have done the same just on a much larger scale. Meaning they would have had little problem keeping their points scoring good enough to beat the next best team.

It wasn't just resources though. the engine stopped a lot of development. And ultimately wrecked the car.

 

[FrankJH]

McLaren and Ferrari couldnt develope ther 2008 car at the same time as their 2009 car (both made the championship tussle of 2008 excuse as to why their 2009 car was so slow initially ) so it doesnt automatically follow, and because of all the hard work McLaren HAD to do on 2009 doesnt mean manpower / windtunner hours were not taken away from 2010 dev time either - we dont know for sure either way

Also Brawn were limited with what they could do with 2009 car given all the late installation etc, and also there would be less gaurentee that anything they did develope would work on the 2010 car, which is why 2009 was completely unique for Brawn

Anything from 2010 onwards is more likely easily adapted for 2011 onwards (unless rule changes allow otherwise)

I really hope KERS doesnt appear - I just think it spoils races, but given that all cars have to be a certain weight at the end of a race, ie give or take empty of fuel - is there any disadvantage to designing the car with KERS, even if its replaced with ballast instead of a working unit (just incase another team does use it)? You wont be losing a weight advantage as the car has to wiegh the same either way (its not like the weight of the KERS unit is excluded from the weight of the car)?

 

[Glaucus]

s there any disadvantage to designing the car with KERS, even if its replaced with ballast instead of a working unit (just incase another team does use it)?

Yes, they make the car as light as possible. That ballast is then used to balance the car. Using kers compromises the balance due it's weight and where it can be placed.

In it's current form KERS is pointless. If they allowed the system to harness more energy and allow bigger HP or longer firing time. Then it would be good from a technological view. But at the moment it's design is pretty much totally restricted making it pointless. All they should say is limit the capacity of the system either electrical, or fly wheel weight. Then allow them to do what ever they like with it. At some point you can not get more energy as you will first unbalance breaking then start locking wheels up.

 

[tonyyeb]

It wasn't just resources though. the engine stopped a lot of development. And ultimately wrecked the car.

True if you are talking about the limitations around the late installation of the Merc engine.

 

[hiroofheroes]

In it's current form KERS is pointless. If they allowed the system to harness more energy and allow bigger HP or longer firing time. Then it would be good from a technological view. But at the moment it's design is pretty much totally restricted making it pointless. All they should say is limit the capacity of the system either electrical, or fly wheel weight. Then allow them to do what ever they like with it. At some point you can not get more energy as you will first unbalance breaking then start locking wheels up.

Surely more tightly integrating the KERS system into the engine would be the right move, but with the engine freeze that's not really possible.

That was Toyota's big problem with KERS in F1 - it's not the same type of system that they'd integrate into their road cars so the R+D costs wouldn't be recouped in their core business.

 

[Glaucus]

True if you are talking about the limitations around the late installation of the Merc engine.

Yep and the effects this had on possible future upgrades.

 

[sunama]

Not only that but it would be pointless going to McLaren with Lewis there , any other driver will be lucky to get a fair rub of the green, highly unlikely to be able to challange for wins unless Lewis makes a mistake and it would be doubly pointless going as Champion (after all at the very leasst the Champ should be undisputed No1 in the team)

Not only that, but it would a bizzarre scenario, if Button is wearing No.1 on his car, yet is being asked to defer to his team-mate. I don't actually think I've ever seen that happen, but should Button move to McLaren, Hamilton will undoubtedly be given preferential treatment and will have the advantage even before either driver has even set foot inside the 2010 car.

 

[sunama]

I hope one of them breaks the gentlemens agreement next year and turns up with a car 2 seconds faster than the rest with KERS and listens to them all whine.

It would certainly be interesting if this happens. I think only McLaren would be in a position to do this as their KERS system was the best and Hamilton seemed to be the driver capable of making the most of it.

 

[stockhausen]

...
I hope one of them breaks the gentlemens agreement next year and turns up with a car 2 seconds faster than the rest with KERS ...

Entirely agree. I would like to see McLaren run with KERS in 2010.

At least it is an innovation that has some sort of connection with the real world.

However, I suspect that if they were to do so, the FIA would soon step in to outlaw it . . . unless Ferrari also decided to retain it

 

[sunama]

However, I suspect that if they were to do so, the FIA would soon step in to outlaw it . . .

Agreed. But it does depend on what sort of time advantage they have on the track. If McLaren come in with a KERS equipped car to race1, with a 2s/lap advantage, they will be asked to remove the device. No way will the FIA stand back and see McLaren having such a huge advantage.

unless Ferrari also decided to retain it

100% agreed and I'm sure JRS will agree, too.

 

[Glaucus]

No way will the FIA stand back and see McLaren having such a huge advantage.

It's in the rules FIA would not interfere other teams would have to start designing as fast as they could.

 

[pingwing]

Anyone else see williams going with some they said last summer about looking to bring in KERS in 2010?? (with the weird fly wheel jobby instead)

My other comical though would be kimmi at brawn (even though money is clearly something brawn dont want to shell out and something kimmi is looking for) jsut for a kimmi nico driver pairing....

Oh yeah and i wouldnt put it past button to end up at mclaren, got a feeling mclaren would love to play the best of british card and ross brawn really doesnt look like the sort of guy who will back down over the issue of pay

Anyone want to make me a williams sig for next year too? (or is it too early) as i think its time to revive my williams fanboy-ness (after the mid to late 90's obsession)

 

[JRS]

However, I suspect that if they were to do so, the FIA would soon step in to outlaw it . . . unless Ferrari also decided to retain it

100% agreed and I'm sure JRS will agree, too.

*sigh*

Guys, it's the FIA who are pushing the use of KERS on everyone. So why would the FIA outlaw it? Especially since we've seen no evidence yet that the change in leadership of the FIA is, in fact, a change in leadership of the FIA....

In its current form in F1, KERS is a blind alley that will lead to no significant advancement either for racing or road applications. Toyota (one of the few manufacturers to go for hybrid powered road cars in a big way) have stated as much. If they want to bring in energy recovery systems that can apply to both worlds without major alterations in emphasis, then all they have to do is reduce the size of the engines and bring back turbocharging. But they can't quite wrap their heads around that concept at the moment.