Poll: Official 2024 United States Grand Prix Race Thread - Circuit of the Americas - Race 19/24

[CaptainRAVE]

It’s just amazing that lando still lacks the experience or racecraft to predict that move.

 

[Mr Jack]

Rules need tweaking to say if car on inside line of corner goes off track, most/all other overtaking rules for car on outside are ignored.

Also if car on inside breaks considerably later than on other laps on a given corner to block outside car, penalty.

It's a difficult one. I don't think a blanket rule allowing the car behind to ignore track limits if the car in front goes a little off is a particularly good rule, either, and it's surely very difficult to judge when a penalty should be applied if a car goes off whilst defending. You have to allow some room for drivers to make mistakes. I don't think there's any particularly simple fix available.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

It's a difficult one. I don't think a blanket rule allowing the car behind to ignore track limits if the car in front goes a little off is a particularly good rule, either, and it's surely very difficult to judge when a penalty should be applied if a car goes off whilst defending. You have to allow some room for drivers to make mistakes. I don't think there's any particularly simple fix available.

It just needs a bit of common sense and there lies the problem with the FIA, it’ll never change.

 

[Scam]

It’s just amazing that lando still lacks the experience or racecraft to predict that move.

I guess it’s really hard at 200km/h to wrap your head around how these dumbass rules are going to be applied. After all we’ve had pages and pages of going round in circles and that’s after all the replays, commentary etc.

In the heat of the moment when you’re in a faster car and consider the best way to get past is in the outside- it’s probably very hard to reconsider (1) Max is more of a dirty driver than the others and will push you off track and (2) you’ll be the one getting penalised for it.

Like I said a few pages ago, the way the rules are written just means the only way to overtake is a lunge up the inside. Happy racing.

 

[imtoooldforthis]

It’s just amazing that lando still lacks the experience or racecraft to predict that move.

I don't think anyone can properly criticise his race craft yesterday tbh, they both drove fantastically and showed themselves to be the elite drivers they are, the battle was fantastic, perfect defense from Max (bar the last bit lol) and a very fair and patient attack from Norris.

Lando is a serious serious talent, it seems to have become fashionable to talk him down this season (whilst talking up his objectively slower team mate). People criminally underestimate him for some bizarre reason. He hadn't won a race prior to this season and yet people are expecting him to have the same level of experience fighting for a win as multiple time WDC.

Also people underestimate how sensational Max is at defending (both within and outside the rules). Ultimately he had to try something like this to get past, it was clear Max was getting a better exit onto the straight via his wider entry into the corner, even when he finally got a bit of wheel spin the DRS was still not enough to let Lando have a proper go. With a stronger DRS he would have got past and people would have hailed the amazing racecraft

 

[Jono8]

Max can't logically have gained a lasting advantage because he came out behind Norris and stayed behind, there is no advantage gained at all for Max, never mind a lasting one.

I don't agree you can then claim Max did have a lasting advantage because Norris got a punishment for completing his overtake off the track, because you end up a in nonsensical loop of logic about who actually got an advantage.

And Norris was definitely the one overtaking into the corner, trying to argue he was actually just retaining a place he'd won clearly before the corner is a massive reach.

Is it? At what point is an overtake complete? As far as I'm aware, if they crossed the finish line like that, Norris would be deemed to be ahead..

I think you misunderstood my point again. Max gains the advantage by intentionally not making the corner/going off track, so he can force his opponent off/wide as well. It's evident that this means the driver attacking will get a penalty if they overtake, so how can anyone ever overtake him when he does this...? Or, on the flip side, how can anyone defend it ?

 

[redeye]

It's a difficult one. I don't think a blanket rule allowing the car behind to ignore track limits if the car in front goes a little off is a particularly good rule, either, and it's surely very difficult to judge when a penalty should be applied if a car goes off whilst defending. You have to allow some room for drivers to make mistakes. I don't think there's any particularly simple fix available.

It's very true, the problem is Max does it ALL the time. He constantly brakes so late into corners it's blatent he won't make the apex or get anywhere close. He's very clever and knows he'll never get a penalty and anyone trying to overtake won't be able to without going off or getting a penalty because of the way the rules are written right now. As someone said previous to this, that makes it virtually impossible to pass him on certain corners. Some may say well he's a great driver and intelligent for doing that.. to a degree yes, and he's sticking precisely by the rules. For those of us who like hard racing but prefer corners not to be overshot on purpose when it's clear he won't make the apex, for the millionth time.. i think it's enough and time for the stewards to do something. Either that or someone should just drive into the side of him until he gets the message.

 

[Mr Jack]

I don't think anyone can properly criticise his race craft yesterday tbh, they both drove fantastically and showed themselves to be the elite drivers they are, the battle was fantastic, perfect defense from Max and very fair and patient attack from Norris.

Also people underestimate how sensational Max is at defending.

How is failing to take the corner, ending up way off track, and forcing the overtaking driver to go even further off track either "perfect" or "sensational" defending?

I'll agree Max actually defended really well in the couple of laps before but, in the end, his dodgy move led to the controversial outcome.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

It's very true, the problem is Max does it ALL the time. He constantly brakes so late into corners it's blatent he won't make the apex or get anywhere close. He's very clever and knows he'll never get a penalty and anyone trying to overtake won't be able to without going off or getting a penalty because of the way the rules are written right now. As someone said previous to this, that makes it virtually impossible to pass him on certain corners. Some may say well he's a great driver and intelligent for doing that.. to a degree yes, and he's sticking precisely by the rules. For those of us who like hard racing but prefer corners not to be overshot on purpose when it's clear he won't make the apex, for the millionth time.. i think it's enough and time for the stewards to do something. Either that or someone should just drive into the side of him until he gets the message.

Whilst it annoys me because it’s unsporting and many other drivers would get penalised, who can blame him when it’s a grey area within the rules and he gets backed by the FIA 9 times out of 10. Heck, without this move he wouldn’t have as many WDCs as he does.

 

[imtoooldforthis]

How is failing to take the corner, ending up way off track, and forcing the overtaking driver to go even further off track either "perfect" or "sensational" defending?

I'll agree Max actually defended really well in the couple of laps before but, in the end, his dodgy move led to the controversial outcome.

Because it was perfect from a defense standpoint. What he did was clever, it forced Norris into a situation where he could only overtake off-track thus rendering any overtake obsolete. Whether it should be allowed is another thing but he did exactly what id expect a cutthroat driver in his position to do to his only WDC rival. He's a very clever and sneaky driver and the defending prior to then was fantastic with numerous examples of perfect car placement. He is the driver no one wants to have to overtake, because if you both drive fair he's still sensational at defending but then on top of that he's got that Schumi/Senna thing where he will also take things a bit too far which puts long term fear into other drivers.

 

[Kenai]

Is it? At what point is an overtake complete? As far as I'm aware, if they crossed the finish line like that, Norris would be deemed to be ahead..

It is definitely a massive reach, that is by no means a completed overtake. I'm no fan of Max's tactics here but lets not get silly about what's going on here, he's very much defending an overtake, not performing an overtake himself.

I think you misunderstood my point again. Max gains the advantage by intentionally not making the corner/going off track, so he can force his opponent off/wide as well.

I haven't but I think your point is hanging on a misunderstanding of the rules.
They can only levy a punishment for gaining a lasting advantage. Max has not gained a lasting advantage by definition because he's lost the position. The only driver who has gained a lasting advantage here is Norris because he chose to complete the overtake.

You can only argue Max has got a lasting advantage if you take into account that Norris' punishment then gives Max the position back, which is what becomes a complete nonsense with needing to penalise them both, to logically find any way to penalise Max.

It's evident that this means the driver attacking will get a penalty if they overtake, so how can anyone ever overtake him when he does this...? Or, on the flip side, how can anyone defend it ?

The (theoretically) easy counter to this behaviour, is to rejoin the track behind him still and then let the stewards punish him for gaining the lasting advantage of keeping his position by driving outside of track limits. Then just cross your fingers you don't get Brazil 21'd.

Should there be a better rule/guideline with which such a behaviour can be punished? Probably but it would be a complete minefield to write without introducing other unintended consequences.

 

[cuke2u]

McLaren seem incredibly naive about everything these days, I do wonder at what point the shareholders will grow a pair. They don’t seem to understand how infrequently these opportunities come along, next year and 2026, another team could be a lot better.

Fortunately no-one needs to be male to make the right decision at all. Perhaps if they employed more women they'd actually get things done

 

[t2na]

I don't think anyone can properly criticise his race craft yesterday

Really?! I thought Norris approach and defence into turn one was really poor.

 

[imtoooldforthis]

Really?! I thought Norris approach and defence into turn one was really poor.

On Lap 1 ?

T1 L1 at COTA is a nightmare in general, very easy for the driver in first to lose a position or two, happens all the time. He could have probably shut the door on Max more aggressively than he did but he would have then had an even narrower entry into the corner which would have given him an even worse exit resulting in the Ferraris presumably still overtaking him. He would have probably held the position ahead of Verstappen though... so yeh he could have done better there.

I was mostly talking about his racecraft during the Verstappen battle though.

 

[Scam]

You can only argue Max has got a lasting advantage if you take into account that Norris' punishment then gives Max the position back, which is what becomes a complete nonsense with needing to penalise them both, to logically find any way to penalise Max.

You're over-complicating it. Max drove wide to stop Norris overtaking. If Norris didn't get the overtake done, then Max has gained a lasting advantage by remaining in front, illegally so. Therefore he should be penalised. The issue that most people have here is that there's no common sense being applied. The steward's attitude seems to be "yes, ok" at what I just said -- but since Norris got the overtake done they pull out the rule that says you can't overtake off-track Zero common sense. If anything when both cars go off like this it should be a racing incident with no penalty (providing the chasing car gets the overtake done), or a penalty on the defensive car if the overtake doesn't get done. (Because it pushed the attacking car off-track)

The (theoretically) easy counter to this behaviour, is to rejoin the track behind him still and then let the stewards punish him for gaining the lasting advantage of keeping his position by driving outside of track limits. Then just cross your fingers you don't get Brazil 21'd.

As above, I don't see why it can't be a racing incident with no penalties given the faster car got past regardless of the defensive shenanigans. If Norris didn't get past then clearly Verstappen should be penalised for driving off-track, impeding and gaining a lasting advantage by remaining in front. It's not rocket science.

EDIT: Was it the beginning of Qatar '21 that Lewis finally learned how to counter this manoeuvre by just carrying on via the run-off and kept the gap? I can't remember who was overtaking who though. EDIT2 no it was AD actually.

 

[Kenai]

You're over-complicating it. Max drove wide to stop Norris overtaking. If Norris didn't get the overtake done, then Max has gained a lasting advantage by remaining in front, illegally so. Therefore he should be penalised.

Yes, IF. IF he had actually retained his place. He didn't, so there was no lasting advantage for him, so nothing to punish. You can't punish him for something that didn't actually happen. He didn't get a lasting advantage, so you can't punish him for getting one. It's very simple really, so i'm not sure what others are finding difficult about it.

The issue that most people have here is that there's no common sense being applied. The steward's attitude seems to be "yes, ok" at what I just said -- but since Norris got the overtake done they pull out the rule that says you can't overtake off-track Zero common sense.

Arguably but then whenever they try to apply sense outside of the written rules, they just open themselves up to more inconsistency than usual. Both cars went off track. One got a lasting advantage, so broke the rule (as written). The other didn't, although the fact they also went off track was taken into account to reduce the penalty applied.

If anything when both cars go off like this it should be a racing incident with no penalty (providing the chasing car gets the overtake done), or a penalty on the defensive car if the overtake doesn't get done. (Because it pushed the attacking car off-track)

Yes it probably should be but writing the rule for the first scenario is fraught with introducing potentially unintended consequences.

As above, I don't see why it can't be a racing incident with no penalties given the faster car got past regardless of the defensive shenanigans.

Because that's not what the rules are, if you leave the track and gain a lasting advantage by doing so, you're liable to get punished. Norris did that, so opened himself up for the punishment.

If Norris didn't get past then clearly Verstappen should be penalised for driving off-track, impeding and gaining a lasting advantage by remaining in front. It's not rocket science.

Yes but there was no chance for that to be tested with the stewards, because Norris chose to complete the overtake and take the lasting advantage himself, giving Max the get out of jail free card.

 

[Mesai]

Really?! I thought Norris approach and defence into turn one was really poor.

He left the door wide open. Norris is way too passive as a driver.

 

[t2na]

On Lap 1 ?

T1 L1 at COTA is a nightmare in general, very easy for the driver in first to lose a position or two, happens all the time. He could have probably shut the door on Max more aggressively than he did but he would have then had an even narrower entry into the corner which would have given him an even worse exit resulting in the Ferraris presumably still overtaking him. He would have probably held the position ahead of Verstappen though... so yeh he could have done better there.

I was mostly talking about his racecraft during the Verstappen battle though.

Yeah, I meant the lap 1 move. I think he needs to pick his battles, it's more important to finish ahead of Max if he wants to claw back his chances of winning the WDC and I think everyone expected the Ferraris to be the quickest car through the race.

For me, that lap 1 turn 1 approach by Lando has to be more ruthless and he should be dictating how the corner goes. He started on pole, had a great launch but just half heartedly covers it and left way too much space. It's only going to continue to happen a this rate too. He's going to get more poles from now until the end of the season and it's likely that it's going to either be Max or Leclerc starting next to him so figuring that out has got to be high on his priority list.

 

[redeye]

Whilst it annoys me because it’s unsporting and many other drivers would get penalised, who can blame him when it’s a grey area within the rules and he gets backed by the FIA 9 times out of 10. Heck, without this move he wouldn’t have as many WDCs as he does.

I agree. So as I said the rules should be changed. You shouldn't be able to deliberately do it all the time.

 

[Scam]

(snip) Yes but there was no chance for that to be tested with the stewards, because Norris chose to complete the overtake and take the lasting advantage himself, giving Max the get out of jail free card.

You seem insistent that Norris gained an advantage by leaving the track whereas it's plain to see that (1) he didn't leave the track by choice, he was avoiding a collision and (2) any advantage was nullified by the fact that the opposing car did the same.

Yes, IF. IF he had actually retained his place. He didn't, so there was no lasting advantage for him, so nothing to punish. You can't punish him for something that didn't actually happen. He didn't get a lasting advantage, so you can't punish him for getting one. It's very simple really, so i'm not sure what others are finding difficult about it.

If Norris didn't complete the overtake then Max would have gained a lasting advantage by remaining ahead. So he would have been penalised and Lando would have got the position, physically or on paper via a penalty given to Max. Since Lando did get the overtake done, there's no need to punish Max and the whole incident should be nullified.

Whilst it annoys me because it’s unsporting and many other drivers would get penalised, who can blame him when it’s a grey area within the rules and he gets backed by the FIA 9 times out of 10. Heck, without this move he wouldn’t have as many WDCs as he does.

Hey, remember when the car in P2 was allowed to roll alongside the car in P1 at a safety car restart? Good times