*** Official Dota 2 Thread ***

GoogalyMoogaly said:
Happened to catch a Wagamama stream the other day where he was talking about the idea of "I'm good but my teammates suck, which is why I lose". Did anyone else see it?

He said in his opinion it doesn't really stand up as an argument.

Basically it's silly to assume that your team is always bad and their team is always good. Their team could be just as bad as yours, except your team has you, so if you're good, it could be 1 good + 4 bad vs. 5 bad players. The odds of you constantly getting bad players vs. good ones is ridiculously small.
Apparently there was a 5K player that played a 3K account and got it up to 5K in about a month.

He did say one of the best ways to improve it to watch back your replays to spot what you did wrong. Assuming you can read the game well enough to see what you did wrong.

Although I don't think he realises how painful it is to experience my performances the first time, let alone again via replay!
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I dont disagree, and i don't claim to be the exception to the rule or anything so arrogant but i have tried to rise in mmr through watching back my games, learning from my mistakes etc etc and to be honest the only way i have found to reliably raise mmr is to literally pick 3-4 charas and play nothing but. Said charas cant be any old charas they have to be charas that either keep your entire team alive (omni) and hope your carries are in some way competent (easy enough with some as the charas choosen become powerful no matter how poor the player) or charas that can literally win solo (Faceless, spectre etc) as mmr seems to mean nothing as to peoples ability. Of course even that plan can't outdo how terrible some team mates are or how good the other team is. Been playing a lot of leshrac as he is so op and have started winning matches just because of how powerful he is right now. If you lose mid with him then you are doing it wrong, go on to dominate mid game and push like hell. Seems if you want to play for fun with any and all heroes your mmr will stay generally static (my experience) however if you pick very specific (op/ really powerful in the right circumstances) heroes then you will tend to move up mmr (assuming you pick correctly).
 
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If you want to climb MMR you have to play the current meta strong heroes basically.

For me I'd rather play the heroes I want to play, so I'm happy to be stuck around the 3.5k mark, I'm not spamming the strong heroes it's not my idea of fun.
 
The IPB said:
If you want to climb MMR you have to play the current meta strong heroes basically.

For me I'd rather play the heroes I want to play, so I'm happy to be stuck around the 3.5k mark, I'm not spamming the strong heroes it's not my idea of fun.
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I'm not sure that's entirely true. I think Wagamama often wins, especially on his smurf, using heroes that aren't OP in the current meta.

http://www.dotabuff.com/players/329...on=&faction=&duration=&timezone=Europe/London

279 games with a 54.48% win rate in ranked on his main (~6.8K MMR).
That's ~152 wins, ~127 loses. so that's +25 wins. Assuming +24 MMR for a win and -25 MMR for a loss, that would mean a gain of 473 MMR. That's just on 6.84c.

No doubt playing the OP characters will help a bit though. Unless the other team has a few people in a stack (or just work well together) and can counter.

I guess I'm sorta lucky in that I've accepted I'm rubbish and just play for fun now, rarely touch ranked.
 
Thing is though with 279 games on that account he has not been in the 'trench' as he calibrated highly. At 5k plus, I have to assume more often than not your team is somewhat competent thus by the law of averages and barring plain bad luck you should win around 50% of games.

Someone on reddit was discussing MMR the other day and he suggested that 2-3k MMR is the worst in many ways as people are competent enough to try strategies but generally not competent enough to pull them off so it is often very frustrating to play with. I would have to agree in part although having never been below 3k or above 4k I couldn't say for certain but so many of my games are made up of one or two people trying some type of strategy and either succeeding or crashing and burning because their timing is all wrong or they don't commit when they need to etc etc.
 
GoogalyMoogaly said:
Happened to catch a Wagamama stream the other day where he was talking about the idea of "I'm good but my teammates suck, which is why I lose". Did anyone else see it?

He said in his opinion it doesn't really stand up as an argument.

Basically it's silly to assume that your team is always bad and their team is always good. Their team could be just as bad as yours, except your team has you, so if you're good, it could be 1 good + 4 bad vs. 5 bad players. The odds of you constantly getting bad players vs. good ones is ridiculously small.
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Theoretically he is correct. What I don't think he takes into account is that not all 5 roles on a team are as influential towards winning a game in a solo queue environment. See the thing is when Waga plays he simply says mid and is allowed to mid every game. When I play a solo game 95% of time I am a hard 5 support, usually a solo support while we have a jungling legion or something equally crap. It is far, far harder for the better player on a team to influence the outcome as a solo support than it is as a strong mid hero.
 
I don't think you can compare the majority of us that play from ocuk and Waga. The guy has played since Dota 1. Years and years of dota.

The first guy to do the experiment in raising MMR, starting with a 2k MMR account was Juice. You might know him by his other name "Swiftending" currently sitting 9th in the EU leader boards. The guy is like 0.1% of the dota population. You cannot compare him stomping through the MMR points and your average player. It's retarded.

I have no doubt if you stick with a small pool of heroes and positions, you will improve. It might not be super fast but you should get better. Really depends on how important having a visible MMR number is to you.

I play almost exclusively non ranked with a few peeps from here and the games are played for the most part properly. It's not often I see some weird clowny item/skill build. 90% of my games both teams are trying just as hard to win.
 
only time for one game tonight, although picking captains mode was much much better, grabbed captain as i had the highest mmr by quite a bit, and totally outpicked the opposition.

I then got to feel pretty smug about myself as our silencer destroyed their zeus in mid, and our bristleback destroyed their PA during the laning phase to the point they couldnt recover.

The queue might be longer but I really think i'm going to stick to captains mode from now on for all my ranked games, the team composition is generally much better which obviously results in better quality games.
 
I find best way to mmr up is to focus on a small pool of 2-3 heroes who are at the time OP and play them to death.

I went up 600mmr just playing Troll at the time he was sick OP. If you are a solid player in trench and can play the "good" heroes well you will rise. I always go with a small pool or even one hero when I decide to push up mmr.

Rest of the time I just play unranked and practice all sorts of heroes to improve.
 
I do appreciate that Waga is better than anyone here (probably) and also probably has more time to play.
That said I'm sure there are 5K players that don't play as well as you'd expect them to play, just like there are 3K players or 2K players that don't play as well as you'd expect. I don't think it's likely that the reason we struggle is because we're good and the rest of our team is almost always bad where as Waga only ever teams with people as good as he is. Remember the people he's playing will be better too, so more likely to capitalise on mistakes.

I also appreciate that we can all feel differently about things based on our experience.
A bit like what we discussed a bit before that about having a good game as a hero and enjoying the hero compared to having a bad game with a hero and not liking them. We've probably all felt the game or certain heroes are broken when we lose badly, but don't think that when we win. Waga's opinion is probably fuelled by his experiences which, due to it working out well for him, may not be completely unbiased (but at the same time, not necessarily incorrect).
 
GoogalyMoogaly said:
I do appreciate that Waga is better than anyone here (probably) and also probably has more time to play.
That said I'm sure there are 5K players that don't play as well as you'd expect them to play, just like there are 3K players or 2K players that don't play as well as you'd expect. I don't think it's likely that the reason we struggle is because we're good and the rest of our team is almost always bad where as Waga only ever teams with people as good as he is. Remember the people he's playing will be better too, so more likely to capitalise on mistakes.

I also appreciate that we can all feel differently about things based on our experience.
A bit like what we discussed a bit before that about having a good game as a hero and enjoying the hero compared to having a bad game with a hero and not liking them. We've probably all felt the game or certain heroes are broken when we lose badly, but don't think that when we win. Waga's opinion is probably fuelled by his experiences which, due to it working out well for him, may not be completely unbiased (but at the same time, not necessarily incorrect).
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The games that I have seen be most imbalanced are when each team gets a higher MMR player. So for example I played a few games at 3.4kish MMR with each team having a 4k player.

Two problems with this, you rely on your highest MMR player going mid or safelane and picking a hero he/she is most comfortable with.

You usually find the high MMR player is playing grouped with a really low MMR mate. Talking almost 2k MMR difference between the 4k and his friend.

If he lets his friend go mid, the game is almost auto lose or if the 4k player decides in his wisdom to random or choose a hero he hasn't played a lot. The game is no longer 50/50 and sways way more the enemy favor.

I've seen the above multiple times. Checking dotabuff to see the 4k player last played the hero 10 months ago. Or finding out after the game that the mid player was his 2k friend playing the highest impact role. So many variables outside your own performance that can effect a win/lose. I can see why people get frustrated.
 
People randoming in ranked drives me insane. I had one guy who randomed skywrath, I picked gyro. In lane he autoattacked creeps despite me telling him not to. Didn't level his silence against a Storm Spirit and then proceeded to go 3-22 or something ridiculous. Then he announced at the end of the game he had never played Skywrath before... If he had just said something we could have switched heroes, needless to say he got an instant report.
 
Shamikebab said:
People randoming in ranked drives me insane. I had one guy who randomed skywrath, I picked gyro. In lane he autoattacked creeps despite me telling him not to. Didn't level his silence against a Storm Spirit and then proceeded to go 3-22 or something ridiculous. Then he announced at the end of the game he had never played Skywrath before... If he had just said something we could have switched heroes, needless to say he got an instant report.
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^ This :D people should leave randoming to unranked. It's pretty selfish to random in ranked unless you are pretty competent on almost every hero. Even then you might screw the lanes.
 
No1newts said:
I find best way to mmr up is to focus on a small pool of 2-3 heroes who are at the time OP and play them to death.

I went up 600mmr just playing Troll at the time he was sick OP. If you are a solid player in trench and can play the "good" heroes well you will rise. I always go with a small pool or even one hero when I decide to push up mmr.

Rest of the time I just play unranked and practice all sorts of heroes to improve.
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This is why you get those "fake" 6k players, they are legit 6k, but only on a very small pool of currently OP heroes.

I can't remember which streamer I was watching, but one of them was talking about this before.

My MMR has remained in the same area since I calibrated, I am not actively trying to better myself, but I still play ranked as I find I have much better games in ranked.
 
The IPB said:
This is why you get those "fake" 6k players, they are legit 6k, but only on a very small pool of currently OP heroes.

I can't remember which streamer I was watching, but one of them was talking about this before.

My MMR has remained in the same area since I calibrated, I am not actively trying to better myself, but I still play ranked as I find I have much better games in ranked.
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Solo queue or party?
 
The IPB said:
This is why you get those "fake" 6k players, they are legit 6k, but only on a very small pool of currently OP heroes.

I can't remember which streamer I was watching, but one of them was talking about this before.

My MMR has remained in the same area since I calibrated, I am not actively trying to better myself, but I still play ranked as I find I have much better games in ranked.
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I won't dispute for a second I use the system against itself to level, when I gain a few hundred I settle in for a good few month to improve and get "comfortable" at the higher level then go again. I'm not hugely bothered about my mmr as I'm not looking to be some super über player but I harbour the secret (probably foolish) hope that if I reach higher mmr's I'll be able to have mostly decent games moron free as that's all I want.

Re shami and randoming in ranked, drives me nuts too. Especially when the person happily admits they haven't played the hero and then proceeds to play guff, save it to unranked!! :p
 
ColdAsIce said:
The games that I have seen be most imbalanced are when each team gets a higher MMR player. So for example I played a few games at 3.4kish MMR with each team having a 4k player.

Two problems with this, you rely on your highest MMR player going mid or safelane and picking a hero he/she is most comfortable with.

You usually find the high MMR player is playing grouped with a really low MMR mate. Talking almost 2k MMR difference between the 4k and his friend.

If he lets his friend go mid, the game is almost auto lose or if the 4k player decides in his wisdom to random or choose a hero he hasn't played a lot. The game is no longer 50/50 and sways way more the enemy favor.

I've seen the above multiple times. Checking dotabuff to see the 4k player last played the hero 10 months ago. Or finding out after the game that the mid player was his 2k friend playing the highest impact role. So many variables outside your own performance that can effect a win/lose. I can see why people get frustrated.
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It's reasonable to assume this happens on the other team too though. Not always in the same game obviously. But some of the games we all win could be down to something like this happening on the other team. I guess we don't check for this as much though and don't complain when we win.

The IPB said:
This is why you get those "fake" 6k players, they are legit 6k, but only on a very small pool of currently OP heroes.

I can't remember which streamer I was watching, but one of them was talking about this before.

My MMR has remained in the same area since I calibrated, I am not actively trying to better myself, but I still play ranked as I find I have much better games in ranked.
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This could be the reason some people think they're higher MMR than they are. They play a lot of Troll when he's OP and their MMR goes up. Then when we get a new meta and Troll goes back to being pretty average they can't use him to win. Maybe they also can't get used to using Leshrak in the new meta either so struggle to find an OP hero and have to play normal heroes and then find the game harder and start losing more frequently.
 
GoogalyMoogaly said:
This could be the reason some people think they're higher MMR than they are. They play a lot of Troll when he's OP and their MMR goes up. Then when we get a new meta and Troll goes back to being pretty average they can't use him to win. Maybe they also can't get used to using Leshrak in the new meta either so struggle to find an OP hero and have to play normal heroes and then find the game harder and start losing more frequently.
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Pretty sure all the filthy troll pickers transitioned comfortably into spamming bloodseeker for mmr.
 
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