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**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****
- Thread starter mohawk
- Start date
Some people will tell you that the Archon Toilet doesn't work anymore but they're extremely wrong. Blizz tweaked it so that theres a set time that units that come out of the vortex can't receive damage but it still works just as well as it did pre-patch.
Btw don't use it against Terran. I've not seen Mothership play against Terran for like a year+
Btw don't use it against Terran. I've not seen Mothership play against Terran for like a year+
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yeah its only useful against broodlors really 
also a quick question how may archons do you need to get a good toilet going ?
also a quick question how may archons do you need to get a good toilet going ?
yeah its only useful against broodlors really
also a quick question how may archons do you need to get a good toilet going ?
I actually don't know. Most pros only build about 5'ish as they're so big that having more means not all will be able to engage unless you're in a good open area. I'd say 5/6 would be a good number.
I'll go look at the stats and let you know.
Just had a look and I'd say 5/6 is a good number.
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Make sure your PCs are stable for longer games. (24 hour prime blend stable, 3 IBT runs in a row should do the trick)
Just had a 2 vs 2 game with all at max supply, after a huge battle with 2 terran, zerg and protoss action built up again and about 1 hour in one of the players dropped. Think he must have had a blue screen or something. Luckily he was on the other side
Just had a 2 vs 2 game with all at max supply, after a huge battle with 2 terran, zerg and protoss action built up again and about 1 hour in one of the players dropped. Think he must have had a blue screen or something. Luckily he was on the other side
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been busy with exams and seeing family etc. Glad to see the thread has survived without my input for a while You? BM!? Surely not.
I'm officially excited about HOTS. I was sceptical but now that I've thought about it and seen the new units in action I can see the reasoning behind each of them, and I like how they'll hopefully make games more dynamic and micro orientated.
My main reservations/gripes are:
1) viper seems extremely OP atm. Abduct is too long range and renders siege tanks useless. Blinding swarm should be an upgrade you have to buy (like seeker missile and psi storm). Compare the usefullness of a vanilla raven to a vanilla viper.
2) tempest range is too long. 16 would be more reasonable. I also flat out fail to see the need for it in the protoss arsenal at all.
3) i predict widow mines will see minimal use in the higher leagues due to any semi-competent player having ages to move away the targetted unit from his army
4) swarm host seem just the same as a brood lord. Don't see the point.
5) terran additions are boring/minor compared to the protoss and zerg ones. Biggest change is the warhound. I really hope they haven't added the new mech units because bio is now unviable.
I'm interested to see how P will deal with a warhound-battle hellion composition, supported by ghosts (immortals) and vikings (collossi) as necessary. Methinks that will become standard for T. The micro burden would at least be even finally
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I have no idea what I said because I rang up to find out why my account was banned. Supposedly telling a Zerg that his race is OP and that's cos Dustin Browder and David Kim are idiots is a ban worthy offence XD
Stupid Blizzard.
I think mostly all the new units are just gimmicky and aren't going to help the game become balanced and interesting.
Oh well, as TvZ and TvP is atm I don't think many Terrans will stick around playing as that race.
Stupid Blizzard.
I think mostly all the new units are just gimmicky and aren't going to help the game become balanced and interesting.
Oh well, as TvZ and TvP is atm I don't think many Terrans will stick around playing as that race.
+1 for being totally fed up with terran (diamond btw). 2.5k wins since the game was released and worked my way up from bronze to diamond in season 1 and been stuck there ever since. Well except dropping down briefly to plat a couple of times
But now I just feel helpless nearly every game that isn't a tvt. Toss has been imba for a while now past the like 15 min mark unless you do massive damage early on, which isn't that easy if they turtle on 2 base and have half a brain to leave a few stalkers to shut down drops. You can't win a straight up fight past this point and even before 15 mins once they get a couple of HTs or colossus out you can't do damage at their choke either. And if you just take a 3rd you die to a 2 base play if they 1a towards your base.
And in TvZ Z just takes like 3 bases by the 6/7 min mark and shuts down any harassment with 4 queens or a few spines. Then the Z machine kicks into action with double upgrades, mass ling, mass infestor and wins. T can't even do any all-ins any more cuz turbo overlords plus map hack creep spread sees everything coming. If you try to slow push with tanks it takes so long to push the creep back that they've massed up whatever they need to crush it, and once you've lost 1 army you never get back into the game.
I could go on....
But now I just feel helpless nearly every game that isn't a tvt. Toss has been imba for a while now past the like 15 min mark unless you do massive damage early on, which isn't that easy if they turtle on 2 base and have half a brain to leave a few stalkers to shut down drops. You can't win a straight up fight past this point and even before 15 mins once they get a couple of HTs or colossus out you can't do damage at their choke either. And if you just take a 3rd you die to a 2 base play if they 1a towards your base.
And in TvZ Z just takes like 3 bases by the 6/7 min mark and shuts down any harassment with 4 queens or a few spines. Then the Z machine kicks into action with double upgrades, mass ling, mass infestor and wins. T can't even do any all-ins any more cuz turbo overlords plus map hack creep spread sees everything coming. If you try to slow push with tanks it takes so long to push the creep back that they've massed up whatever they need to crush it, and once you've lost 1 army you never get back into the game.
I could go on....
Spot on.
Protoss has too much AOE and is too much a move.
Zerg now has too much map control allowing for super greed. Roach/ling baneling attacks before 10mins which don't actually hinder them in the slightest willkie killing anything in its way.
Protoss has too much AOE and is too much a move.
Zerg now has too much map control allowing for super greed. Roach/ling baneling attacks before 10mins which don't actually hinder them in the slightest willkie killing anything in its way.
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I think as a protoss i would not mind loosing HT if we were given a better way to deal with muta ling and or a unit that gives the protoss better harassment options , as terran have very const efficient drops , zerg have ling run by's and tos only has warp prism , which can work but the units are very expensive to loose in harassment
Just my thoughts
I think as a protoss i would not mind losing the Colossus if we were given a better way to deal with muta ling and or a unit that gives the protoss better harassment options , as terran have very const efficient drops , zerg have ling run by's and tos only has warp prism , which can work but the units are very expensive to lose in harassment
Just my thoughts
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NOOO I love Colossus :L
NOOO I love Colossus :L
hehe
I've just spent the last couple years trying to work with protoss as a multipronged, heavy harassment style race. Colossus deathballs dont interest me at all. I still use it but it's just not fun for me 
. As far as i'm concerned colossi should be added as siege units for defence when you're on 4-5 bases. HTs and DTs on the other hand
I think i've lost a few friends for my midgame DTs (<3 robhu)...
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ahh right I can see that would be fun
As a lower level type of player I try to work on mechanics and macro before I really work on other things.
Though I do find it fun sniping greater spires with a few zealots :L
would be fun As a lower level type of player I try to work on mechanics and macro before I really work on other things.
Though I do find it fun sniping greater spires with a few zealots :L
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Just won a game where a zerg tried to keep me in my base with about 20 mutalisks darting about all 3 nexuses and I had a mothership, colossi+lots of blink stalkers. I had a fast obs on them and kept them at by but was sending zealots out and finding he was expanding all over the shop. I left my base and base raced him while he was killing my base. Ofc he kept on re making bases all over and eventually left, though he did massive dmg to my main.
It felt like a really scruffy game. Just looking on ways to improve on how to handle this? Build cannons all over my base? Though his flock could've killed them when I moved out.
It felt like a really scruffy game. Just looking on ways to improve on how to handle this? Build cannons all over my base? Though his flock could've killed them when I moved out.
Muta has always been a tricky composition to handle in PvZ.
The correct reaction is blink stalkers with HTs to storm. Archons also do very well against Mutas and all Zerg units for that matter.
If he's not got any huge support for the mutas and he's flying all around trying to keep you there and your army is nearing max (especially with mothership) then just go kill him. If the Mutas come to help in the engagement then vortex them.
PvZ is probably the only non-mirror matchup that goes into base trades frequently.
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yeah as I arrived at his main he was morphing in lots of blords if I waited any longer they'd of overrun me.
Problem I had was my main was so overcrowed getting my stalkers back to it and out was a right old mess as they had to zig zag between buildings. Might a right mess of it
if I waited any longer they'd of overrun me.Problem I had was my main was so overcrowed getting my stalkers back to it and out was a right old mess as they had to zig zag between buildings. Might a right mess of it
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It's so nice to see terrans crying imba after seeing so many terrans mocking Protoss players when Protoss was getting destroyed everywhere... The only difference being that Terrans are still performing well at very high levels whereas when Protoss were complaining, pretty much every protoss player everywhere was performing below expectation. The game seems balanced in terms of PvZ and PvT... A week ago, ZvT seemed extremely biased in terms of tournament results, but things are already starting to even out as terran players adapt to the changes, and I'm sure this will continue. Terran is not underpowered to the extent that terran players can blame their race imbalance alone for their losses - the balance is very fine and only effects professional play significantly... Probably only a few % if even that of games lost below high masters are due to balance.
People have a tendency to exagerate - it's impossible to do damage to a protoss who knows how to defend in early TvP? Well I guess most professional protoss players are worse than the players you face on ladder then, as terrans manage to do damage against them.
People have a tendency to exagerate - it's impossible to do damage to a protoss who knows how to defend in early TvP? Well I guess most professional protoss players are worse than the players you face on ladder then, as terrans manage to do damage against them.
This is going to be one of those rare times I actually reply back seriously seeing as you're pretty wrong.
TvZ is imbalanced. Everyone from pro Terrans to Pro Zergs admit that the change wasn't needed and there isn't a way to deal with it without putting yourself behind.
People keep saying "well Terrans will have to learn to play differently" and that statement is wrong. It's wrong because Terran is already the race with the most openings available too them and nothing actually works apart from blind counters OR outplaying your opponent completely.
I find it funny that you mention PvZ is balanced because if I know personally and have heard it a thousand times on TeamLiquid that people disagree with that. The same reason the Stephano build works because Protoss are generally considered "weaker" at the start so when you've got a race that can't actually apply proper pressure with anything that isn't easily cleaned up by Spines then you allow the Zerg to drone up way too much. In the recent MLG the only statistic where Foreigners winrate against Koreans was way past 50% was in ZvP (Probably thanks to Stephano but there are a lot of european pro Zergs).
This is basically the same problem in TvZ because you shouldn't be engaging on creep and in all pro games the creep spread is out of control allowing for too much map control. The Queen change directly affected this because you never use to see the Spanishiwa build because it fell out of popularity so much because it's pointless having 4 queens and they would need to be in a safe position to stop the hellions from killing them.
Imagine if Observers were free and you could multiply them every 30seconds or so?
Now you mention that balance only affects professional play or high Masters+, well that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Protoss is a race that relies on it's AoE units to be able to take on the overwhelming firepower(Stim) of Terran and the overwhelming numbers of Zergs. The way to deal with AoE is to do split micro which generally you won't be very affective at until Diamond+? So in actual facts AoE is less effective the higher up the ladder you go.
How is it not imbalanced when lets say one of the Gold-Diamond Terrans here are playing against a Protoss and they have to engage his army so they're micro'ing as well as they can and the Protoss is just 1A'ing, maybe putting down a few force fields and spamming T all over his army? Then they warp in 15 Zealots behind their army whether the Terran wins or not. Defenders advantage? what is that?]
It's also the reason that we don't have more Protoss champions. They have to rely heavily on AoE but it's just not affective against pros who can micro.
Your comment on how the players on ladder are better than pro players show how little understanding you have because people on ladder are going to face opponents around the same level so you expect these goldies to have the same game sense as a GM? Pro Protoss also know their opponents are capable of both dropping and attacking the natural simultaneously which is why they find it harder to defend. Also name a Protoss player who hasn't gone against a intimidating opponent in a high profile match?
Also I'd really like to hear about the incredibly recent results from any tournament where Zergs didn't lose apart from where they made huge mistakes.
Just woke up so it's probably a jumble.
TvZ is imbalanced. Everyone from pro Terrans to Pro Zergs admit that the change wasn't needed and there isn't a way to deal with it without putting yourself behind.
People keep saying "well Terrans will have to learn to play differently" and that statement is wrong. It's wrong because Terran is already the race with the most openings available too them and nothing actually works apart from blind counters OR outplaying your opponent completely.
I find it funny that you mention PvZ is balanced because if I know personally and have heard it a thousand times on TeamLiquid that people disagree with that. The same reason the Stephano build works because Protoss are generally considered "weaker" at the start so when you've got a race that can't actually apply proper pressure with anything that isn't easily cleaned up by Spines then you allow the Zerg to drone up way too much. In the recent MLG the only statistic where Foreigners winrate against Koreans was way past 50% was in ZvP (Probably thanks to Stephano but there are a lot of european pro Zergs).
This is basically the same problem in TvZ because you shouldn't be engaging on creep and in all pro games the creep spread is out of control allowing for too much map control. The Queen change directly affected this because you never use to see the Spanishiwa build because it fell out of popularity so much because it's pointless having 4 queens and they would need to be in a safe position to stop the hellions from killing them.
Imagine if Observers were free and you could multiply them every 30seconds or so?
Now you mention that balance only affects professional play or high Masters+, well that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Protoss is a race that relies on it's AoE units to be able to take on the overwhelming firepower(Stim) of Terran and the overwhelming numbers of Zergs. The way to deal with AoE is to do split micro which generally you won't be very affective at until Diamond+? So in actual facts AoE is less effective the higher up the ladder you go.
How is it not imbalanced when lets say one of the Gold-Diamond Terrans here are playing against a Protoss and they have to engage his army so they're micro'ing as well as they can and the Protoss is just 1A'ing, maybe putting down a few force fields and spamming T all over his army? Then they warp in 15 Zealots behind their army whether the Terran wins or not. Defenders advantage? what is that?]
It's also the reason that we don't have more Protoss champions. They have to rely heavily on AoE but it's just not affective against pros who can micro.
Your comment on how the players on ladder are better than pro players show how little understanding you have because people on ladder are going to face opponents around the same level so you expect these goldies to have the same game sense as a GM? Pro Protoss also know their opponents are capable of both dropping and attacking the natural simultaneously which is why they find it harder to defend. Also name a Protoss player who hasn't gone against a intimidating opponent in a high profile match?
Also I'd really like to hear about the incredibly recent results from any tournament where Zergs didn't lose apart from where they made huge mistakes.
Just woke up so it's probably a jumble.
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