**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

[m4rk84]

Words do not express how bad i'am at this game. I got it early on and didnt play much, sufice to say i recently picked the game up again and have been getting my backside handed to me over and over since.

I only play terran because im not brave enough to try anything else. I can get a nice fast economy going early on and if forced i can even do a fast expand... but my problem is i never know when to stop building troops at the start and harrass, and i almost always bulk up my base way too much and end up shelling behind my line untill the enemy comes to stomp me.

Once or twice i got brave and i got burned as a result, i do watch videos and stuff but i just suck suck suck ... need mentor!

For a new player I strongly recommend you watch the following 3 Day[9] vods, they are in my opinion the most immediately helpful videos that exist:

[Day[9] Daily #252] - Secrets of Hotkeys, APM and Mouse Movement
[Day[9] Daily #257] - Newbie Tuesday: Refining Mechanics
[Day[9] Daily #261] - Newbie Tuesday: Mechanics #2

You can learn builds, learn strategies and learn tactics all you like however if your underlying mechanics aren't up to par you will always be playing at a disadvantage. It's one of the least touched on aspects of SC2 and I have a feeling it's why lots of new players grow frustrated with the game. You can find tons of info everywhere on builds and what counters what but there's very little info around on the core mechanics that are the backbone of everything you will do in the game.

 

[Kamwah]

The only difference being that I'm actually backing up what I'm saying whereas you're just trying to avoid the fact that you don't have any replays where you lost while playing better than your opponent, while constantly whining that terran needs to outplay zerg/protoss to win

The difference is you are just parrot'ing and have no actual idea apart from saying "oh well the pros can do it"
And of course I'm not outplaying the majority of my Zerg/toss opponents. It's hard when both races are like 50% easier to play and require little to no micro and can see nearly all of the map with cheap or free units.

Unless you can actually tell me how I'm wrong then don't bother replying. No parrot'ing either.

 

[Slinkie]

Can someone recommend me some single base pressure terran builds I could use. Most of my builds are based on expanding and out macroing my opponent but it also means most of my games are 25 to 30 mins long and it takes it toll on me. I'd like to try builds that can apply pressure early and either win the game there and then or expand off it.

 

[SheepBeast]

Can someone recommend me some single base pressure terran builds I could use. Most of my builds are based on expanding and out macroing my opponent but it also means most of my games are 25 to 30 mins long and it takes it toll on me. I'd like to try builds that can apply pressure early and either win the game there and then or expand off it.

Well it's more of an all in than a pressure build but the 11 11 rax is great in TvT if you want to end the game quickly (sometimes i'm just not in the mood for a 50min tank viking attrition fest). Basically it's

10 depot
11 rax
11 rax (proxy)
build SCVs
marines & OC

the idea is that this build looks exactly the same as a 1 rax FE so most of the time the enemy will think they are safe for a while after their first scout. You can further imply this by building your first depot and rax at your natural ramp.

The proxy rax doesn't have to be ridiculously close to the enemy base, as long as it's closeish and somewhere which is very unlikely to be scouted (careful of xelnaga towers).

Rally marines from both barracks to the xelnaga tower nearest the enemy base. Once you have 4 marines it's time to attack. Bring ~12 SCvs and run into the enemy base with them in front of your marines. You should win against most builds, as in the current metagame 90% of terrans will only have 1 rax (~2 marines) that early in the game.

As for pressure builds, check out the replay I posted a page or two back. (for TvZ). Really cool constant marine pressure, doesn't end the game straight away but almost always does before they get hive tech. Starts with a CC first so it's very macro orientated too. The downside is obviously you will lose to a 6pool (prehaps building the CC at your main ramp as a wall off might help a bit), and your marine splitting has to be good. Your tech is also pretty delayed - gas is prioritised into marine upgrades and if you don't do enough damage then he will have banked enough money for quite a few infestors -> gg.

2 rax pressure (1 reactor 1 tech lab) works great against a protoss who goes nexus first or 1 gate expo, which together make up about 70% of the current metagame. Not sure of the precise build order but google will provide the answer i'm sure. The aim is to keep trading armies meanwhile you will achieve a tech lead. Once medivacs are out you can drop freely all over the place and generally be a right PITA for the protoss player.

The reason I brought up the 11 11 rax for TvT is because there aren't really any pressure builds in that matchup (mainly because of siege tanks). I guess the closest thing would be the 1/1/1 where you go reapers, hellions, banshees and just constantly harass. It's pretty tough on the multitasking though, and even though mine is above average for diamond level I wouldn't attempt that build as my macro would slip too badly.

 

[SheepBeast]

Such an awesome post, thank you so much for the advice!

Ill be sure to give everything a try and post my results, ill join the chat channel also! maybe once i get some practice in you can dominate me in short order im sure

Glad to help m4rk84's post is also very sound advice, i've seen those videos myself and they're very helpful. You won't see me online for the next few weeks as i'll be away, but when I make my return in mid august we can play (unless you do a kamwah and ragequit before then) <3 kamwah.

 

[SheepBeast]

was playing a PvP on my NA account... i was ahead until the enemy caught my army in a move command and fried it instantly. Stupid noob mistake by me, i'm kicking myself.

On another note I really dislike how PvP is basically "who has the most collossi?". Just go 3 gate robo into double robo double forge and sac gateway units after you're maxed to give you the higher collossus count. EZ mode. It would be nice if stargate tech was actually a viable alternative, so there would be two options equivalent to mech/bio in TvT. I guess in ZvZ it would be the choice between roach/muta.

 

[Kamwah]

Stargate play lategame is actually viable it's just rarely seen. Voidrays good yo!
PvP does technically come down to who gets 3 Collosi first and the micro involved is next to none.

TvT will always be the best mirror due to the high number of openings that may not be viable past the earlygame but Hellion/Reaper or Hellion/Marine is fun to play. Not to mention the dozen'ish 111 variants XD

ZvZ is the choice between Mutas or Infestors. Seeing as it's next to impossible to engage with a muta based army against infestors unless you want to get 'Fungurl'd and if the Muta player doesn't do significant damage then they always fall back to Roaches/Infestors.

BTW Fudge you Sheep.

 

[Tune]

Lol at the goldies and plats telling a master player of two races that he's balance whining and doesn't know the winrates XD

O well I'll reply back when someone of high enough skill actually replies with a well written reply telling me why I'm wrong.

Sorry oh high and mighty, didn't realise we all need to be better than you to have an opinion oh and btw I'm rank 1 dia, not exactly goldies and plats.

 

[Kamwah]

Sorry oh high and mighty, didn't realise we all need to be better than you to have an opinion oh and btw I'm rank 1 dia, not exactly goldies and plats.

That's perfectly alright subject.

Opinions don't matter when the Korean-only events speak for themselves. You've yet to actually reply with any knowledge and all you've said is "balance whine" lol.

Just mentioning you're "rank 1 diamond" doesn't instill any faith in me. You should know at that level it's more accurate to describe yourself with your points and not your league's ladder positioning.

.

 

[Tune]

Just saying, all you do is come here and whine yourself, toss imba storm imba zerg imba bla bla bla, it's annoying, the main reason I don't keep up with this thread anymore.

 

[ordinaryjoe]

The difference is you are just parrot'ing and have no actual idea apart from saying "oh well the pros can do it"

Oh I'm sorry for quoting actual statistics with sources of information instead of plucking numbers from nowhere. Seriously, 30% win rate? Oh but you're right because your masters, and because I'm personally not masters, if I quote someone who has actually taken real statistics, those statistics are wrong? Sorry but being masters league doesn't mean you get to choose what statistics should say.

And of course I'm not outplaying the majority of my Zerg/toss opponents. It's hard when both races are like 50% easier to play and require little to no micro and can see nearly all of the map with cheap or free units.

Sorry for 'parotting' you but I thought I'd bring up some things you said before...

Terran is already the race with the most openings available too them and nothing actually works apart from blind counters OR outplaying your opponent completely.

I don't think Terrans will find anything new and I'm still seeing Terrans having to outplay Zerg opponents to actually win when it used to be really even.

I don't actually lose every game in TvZ but I for damn sure know I'm going to have to outplay my opponent completely to win.

So you have to completely outplay your opponent to win? Surely that implies that if you outplay them a moderate amount, they win... So I challenged you to show me a replay of this and guess what... You made excuses to not give a replay... then admitted that you can't. You then said that you aren't outplaying them now, and implied that it's stupid that I suggested that you did. Ummm... You said it yourself mate

 

[Kamwah]

You quotes statistics from just 1 league? Wow you must be incredibly insightful into the state of TvZ post-patch.

Infact the info is as follows...

Taking into account the following Korean events - GSL Code S/A/UnD, GSTL, TSL4 Korean Quals1-4,OSL Preliminaries.
The score altogether for TvZ is 177-270 out of 447 games giving Zerg a winrate of 60.4% - Now imagine if you add IPL events, the Korean weeklys and other non-pro tournies with easily attainable information.

I'm not going to bother showing you a replay when if you can't see the blatantly obvious from the daily,weekly events from the professional scene then you're just blind. Especially when at all levels of play there are going to be mistakes made and from your viewpoint it's obvious you're not going to be persuaded by replays.

I find it hilarious that none of you can see the imbalance that is being thrust upon all the Tv? matchups especially when at one point late last year the winrates were quite even and then Terran gets nerfed yet again for NO reason.

Don't worry, one day you'll realize AoE is one of the mechanics you can't balance and therefore should be removed.

 

[ordinaryjoe]

You quotes statistics from just 1 league? Wow you must be incredibly insightful into the state of TvZ post-patch.

Wow... there's a league which has 3001 international games and 309 Korean only games? It's not my insight mate... It's statistics.

Infact the info is as follows...

Taking into account the following Korean events - GSL Code S/A/UnD, GSTL, TSL4 Korean Quals1-4,OSL Preliminaries.
The score altogether for TvZ is 177-270 out of 447 games giving Zerg a winrate of 60.4% - Now imagine if you add IPL events, the Korean weeklys and other non-pro tournies with easily attainable information.

On the other hand, if you don't simply pick the tournaments you want but go with the general winrates posted on TL, you get a much more fair view which shows that terran is doing quite alright.

60.4% win rate is not the 70% you said. Adding other touraments doesn't necessarily add up the winrate.

I'm not going to bother showing you a replay when if you can't see the blatantly obvious from the daily,weekly events from the professional scene then you're just blind. Especially when at all levels of play there are going to be mistakes made and from your viewpoint it's obvious you're not going to be persuaded by replays.

I find it hilarious that none of you can see the imbalance that is being thrust upon all the Tv? matchups especially when at one point late last year the winrates were quite even and then Terran gets nerfed yet again for NO reason.

What can I not see? That it's imbalanced? I've already conceded that the balance isn't perfect. It never will be unless if you say everyone has to play one race or something like that. The difference is that you keep claiming that you have to 'completely outplay' your opponents to win. I ask for an example where you lost while outplaying your opponent. You won't give me one. You even now say you aren't outplaying zerg/toss opponents, after having just said that you have to 'completely outplay' your opponents to win.

Answer this question:
Do you need to outplay zerg/toss opponents to win or not?

At the moment, you are all over the place - making up fake statistics, contradicting yourself then you go for the whole "I'm masters league... You're not etc etc etc" as if that alone makes you right. I've said many times that the game isn't completely balanced but I'm saying you will win almost every game you outplay your opponent.

Don't worry, one day you'll realize AoE is one of the mechanics you can't balance and therefore should be removed.

So I guess TvT is imbalanced as that has seige tank splash, seeker missile etc? Nothing that isn't a complete mirror will be entirely balanced but removing splash all together would make it a different game completely. You're just whining because you picked the race with worst splash but with massive DPS... if they removed splash, they'd make up for terran's insane DPS by buffing other things which you'd then proceed to whine about instead. The main reason you are losing is because you are being outplayed - yet you whine about balance.

 

[Kamwah]

Fake statistics! LOL. It's 60-40 through the TLPD but the TLPD doesn't take into account a lot of online qualifiers like TSL4,IPL5 and OSL because they're trying to make out that it's balanced when it's not. I picked the tournaments I did

Why would you leave out qualifiers which are probably 10x more accurate at showing balance than the GSL S/A? Because they're idiots.

You have to completely outplay Zerg and you have to do early damage to a Protoss of equal skill levels. When a race can make about 10roaches and 15banelings before the 12minute mark and still not be economically hurt then something is very wrong. Both Protoss/Zerg have way too much production capability.

Siege tanks are completely different, they are static units that don't have anywhere near as much damage potential as any of the other AoE units. Seeker missile is hardly ever used lol.

AoE is there because without it Terran can trade too efficiently not due to the high DPS but due to medivacs. When you can heal units that fast the opponent needs to be able to deal more damage than the medivac can heal yet Banelings and Storm kill marines in seconds and requires no skill to use yet it takes a lot of skill to micro correctly against it.
So that makes Banelings and Storm imbalanced, therefore I'm correct.

I'd proceed to whine when they make it so all the races don't require micro to be effective? I don't think so, I think they should choose to make the game about micro and skill or gimmicks and 'spraying and praying' just like FPS games have now become.

O I'm being outplayed? Thanks! I didn't realize I was being outplayed by the two A-move races. It's pretty easy to outplay someone else when they have to effectively use atleast several times the APM on their army than the opponent.

I apologize that you view the truth as whining.

Actually if you ever want to see what SC2 should be then go watch a BW match and see how well balanced it is because they didn't do pointless stupid nerfs/buffs all the way through it then ignore the community who're telling them the truth.

Btw I find it laughable that you suggest it's due to that I picked Terran when I play all three races at Masters level (My Zerg fell to Diamond a few seasons back). You act like you know more yet you've not actually said anything that doesn't just make me lol.

 

[SheepBeast]

You have to completely outplay Zerg and you have to do early damage to a Protoss of equal skill levels. When a race can make about 10roaches and 15banelings before the 12minute mark and still not be economically hurt then something is very wrong. Both Protoss/Zerg have way too much production capability.

10 roaches and 15 banelings? Terran can have 4 tanks and ~20+marines and 2 medivacs by then (while not being economically hurt at all) which would rape that silly. I don't understand how you can conclude from that that "something is very wrong".

AoE is there because without it Terran can trade too efficiently not due to the high DPS but due to medivacs. When you can heal units that fast the opponent needs to be able to deal more damage than the medivac can heal yet Banelings and Storm kill marines in seconds and requires no skill to use yet it takes a lot of skill to micro correctly against it.
So that makes Banelings and Storm imbalanced, therefore I'm correct.

1/1/1 takes more skill to defend than execute too. Every race has something like this. You just have to deal with it. Hell even seeker missile takes more skill to avoid than cast - does that mean it's imbalanced? Clearly it's not.

I'd proceed to whine when they make it so all the races don't require micro to be effective? I don't think so, I think they should choose to make the game about micro and skill or gimmicks and 'spraying and praying' just like FPS games have now become.

O I'm being outplayed? Thanks! I didn't realize I was being outplayed by the two A-move races. It's pretty easy to outplay someone else when they have to effectively use atleast several times the APM on their army than the opponent.

Somewhat agree with this actually.

Actually if you ever want to see what SC2 should be then go watch a BW match and see how well balanced it is because they didn't do pointless stupid nerfs/buffs all the way through it then ignore the community who're telling them the truth.

And this. BW engagements lasted more than 5 seconds and were pretty much constant skirmishing between small armies, all around the map. Much better than a-move deathball scenarios but I'm afraid the better unit pathing is largely what put an end to this, rather than any specific units or race mechanics, or imbalances.

I don't necessarily disagree with the point you are making Kamwah, but I don't think you are going about it in the best way. You're right that the micro burden is too heavy on T and light on the other two races, but this is being rectified in HOTS (at least that's the plan). It's not possible for Blizzard to do much about in at this stage in WoL's lifespan as it would involve too many fundamental changes to how each race works. Basically there's not a whole lot of point complaining about it (yeah I know I've done my own share of complaining so that's somewhat hypocritical).

One thing which worries me however is that they are fixing said micro-imbalance by giving terran more a-move units. I'd rather they did it the other way around, and made the other races micro more. I'd even be happy if terran got no new units (maybe just a raven tweak), if they did this.

 

[m4rk84]

Balance or imbalance is pretty irrelevant tbh in all the match ups.

They are all close enough that if you play better then your opponent you win.

Balance discussion is only relevant at the very top 5% of pros in the world, the rest simply need to get better.

People like having something to blame, this is the only reason balance whine exists.

 

[Kamwah]

Balance or imbalance is pretty irrelevant tbh in all the match ups.
They are all close enough that if you play better then your opponent you win.
Balance discussion is only relevant at the very top 5% of pros in the world, the rest simply need to get better.
People like having something to blame, this is the only reason balance whine exists.

O how wrong you are lol. At the lower levels Protoss is the easiest race to play.

10 roaches and 15 banelings? Terran can have 4 tanks and ~20+marines and 2 medivacs by then (while not being economically hurt at all) which would rape that silly. I don't understand how you can conclude from that that "something is very wrong".

So I'm being holed into playing Marine+tank everygame or atleast earlygame to survive these stupid 'light' pressures? Which aren't light at all and are easily game winning.

Plus with 4tanks and 12marines you're not going to be able to move out and he's just going to go up to 3base and macro up like all Zergs do these days from 4/6 queen

1/1/1 takes more skill to defend than execute too. Every race has something like this. You just have to deal with it. Hell even seeker missile takes more skill to avoid than cast - does that mean it's imbalanced? Clearly it's not.

I agree but the 111 is a strategy. Not a unit that you can do in mass which is why it's different.

And Seeker Missile takes a load of resources and if you let him get there then it's more your fault XD

And this. BW engagements lasted more than 5 seconds and were pretty much constant skirmishing between small armies, all around the map. Much better than a-move deathball scenarios but I'm afraid the better unit pathing is largely what put an end to this, rather than any specific units or race mechanics, or imbalances.

If you watch the proleague where it's split between BW/SC2 atm you'll see the BW pros play SC2 just like BW with constant army movement and engagements but you realize when they play against SC2 pros that this game can't be played like that very effectively and they just get raped.

I don't necessarily disagree with the point you are making Kamwah, but I don't think you are going about it in the best way. You're right that the micro burden is too heavy on T and light on the other two races, but this is being rectified in HOTS (at least that's the plan). It's not possible for Blizzard to do much about in at this stage in WoL's lifespan as it would involve too many fundamental changes to how each race works. Basically there's not a whole lot of point complaining about it (yeah I know I've done my own share of complaining so that's somewhat hypocritical).

I don't think HotS will make Starcraft better. It will make it worse with a lot of gimmicky units which require no micro and they're mostly all going to Toss/Zerg

One thing which worries me however is that they are fixing said micro-imbalance by giving terran more a-move units. I'd rather they did it the other way around, and made the other races micro more. I'd even be happy if terran got no new units (maybe just a raven tweak), if they did this.

Terran doesn't need new units IMO. Toss needs Storm nerfed so that it does less damage or it's over a longer period.

Zerg has loads of different things which would be viable to balance them but ZvT/P is pretty boring as it is right now.

Just finished playing a game against GM toss as Zerg and nearly won lol XD

 

[HankScorpio]

Reaper vs Colossus

 

[tals]

Kind of late to the party here, regarding MP match ups can this be 1v1 or generally is it more 2v2's etc. How does the ranking work in this respect solo/team etc?

The game tempted me but the repeorted procedural aspect (Macroing?) of the game put me off. i.e where you have to build in a certain way and within a certain time frame if you have any chance of winning. Is this that evident - particularly in bronze and silver as I am 100% confident this is a part of the game i'd never be that good at.

 

[nex20]

Just saying, all you do is come here and whine yourself, toss imba storm imba zerg imba bla bla bla, it's annoying, the main reason I don't keep up with this thread anymore.

Haha. This. All this thread is a bitch fest in how terran have such a hard time. Boring..