Performance Diesels

The Diesel v Petrol debate is not really about performance or statistics as I said above, but this is where most people focus, wrongly in my opinion, when they get into a debate on the merits of both. The fact is a diesel can be every bit as quick as a petrol and Le Mans has demonstrated this for years now so that debate can be put to bed. Diesels are also better in terms of fuel consumption, again something that needs no further discussion. I would also say that today, on today’s roads, with today’s road conditions and traffic a diesel is a nicer car to live with as it is typically a more relaxing drive due to effortless torque delivery and the characteristics of how a diesel engine delivers its power. All in all a powerful modern diesel is a very good car for most people in most conditions, to argue otherwise is ignorant really and to suggest that something like a 335d or 535d cannot be fun to hustle down a lane at pace on a nice sunny day is also wrong because they are. You can carry speed in a more discreet manner, which is no bad thing and you can 'hustle' them quickly. Chip them and they will also put epic twisting power down and are often a little more tractable than petrol so again they are very very good.

However, as I suspect Nick WILL find, put a 335d against an E46 M3 and that extra 20% of driving pleasure becomes clear quite quickly. The 335d is probably fairly close in performance terms, when chipped a little quicker even but the S54 engine in the M3 is a petrol engine doing what it does brilliantly and even a stunning diesel engine like that in the 335d is left standing when it comes to throttle response, sound and simple visceral pleasure that a high revving NA engine can deliver. To hold it in the 6000-8000rpm range is a real pleasure and something no diesel can give, its responsiveness is from a different league and to suggest otherwise is once more ignorant. It's not about power or statistics; I keep saying this but so many people miss this. IT IS NOT ABOUT STATISTICS, it’s about subjective stuff that many won’t get and that's fine, but to focus on the OP's specific point THIS is why petrol heads like me and others prefer petrol.

Each to their own as they say.
 
mw 118D here on order and I got this over 118i due to company car tax being cheaper and it is just so damn smooth to drive

It's not really that smooth :confused:

A much better choice than the 118i, and a choice which if faced with I'd have made as well, but its hardly a smooth drive - its a torquey 4 cylinder diesel, they are not 'smooth'.
 
Picking a diesel really depends on the car in question never in a million years is a proper car driver going to buy a diesel 911. However a Q7 buyer would be better off with a diesel engine same goes for the likes of a Galaxy it has nothing to do with cost savings just the fact the diesel engine suits the car better compared to the petrols in the range.

It is a tougher call between a x35d or x35i but its more down to personal preference neither are the sports car of the range that is what the M car is for so for me if I wasn't getting the M car I would take the x35d as a allround every day car I would prefer this some other people might prefer the x35i.

If I wanted a sports car it would be a petrol without a doubt however diesels can upset a sports car on your average road. It wasn't long ago where BigT posted that his ZM4 was barely keeping up with a 335d. Who would have thought a 3L diesel would have been able to keep pace from a standing start with a M petrol engined car where the driver was using the gears and all the revs in a car a fair bit lighter than the diesel. If the 335d driver had been on this forum he would have been shot down in flames as the ZM4 wouldn't have been going for it or wouldn't have been using the gearbox.
 
Depends what you are comparing though, like for like VAGs 2.0 TDI is what, 170bhp at most? Compare that to Renaults 2.0 NA lump that is now pushing 200bhp.

If you are comparing the mid to lower end of the market, then the technology is not quite there yet I agree. But I wouldn't make your basis for comparison BHP alone as the engines work very differently and despite a slower 0-60 time between the VAG comparison you make. Through the gears the Diesel would probably be a close competitor if not quicker.

However give it a couple of years and I do honestly see diesel having a performance edge over petrol because (as I mentioned), you only have to look at the last few years at say Le-Man's to see that Diesel technology is becoming superior to petrol. It just all depends on if and when we can expect to see this in our everyday road cars.

Again, as mentioned in my OP... I am a petrol fan, always will be I think as there is deffo something lacking with sporty diesel cars. That said, they may eventually end up with better on paper spec / performance than petrol and when / if that happens, it may be difficult to ignore...
 
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Again, as mentioned in my OP... I am a petrol fan, always will be I think as there is deffo something lacking with sporty diesel cars. That said, they may eventually end up with better on paper spec / performance than petrol and when / if that happens, it may be difficult to ignore...

Personally, I relish driving experience over outright performance, so the spec has little to do with it for me. Diesels just don't light my fire, simple as.
 
Personally, I relish driving experience over outright performance, so the spec has little to do with it for me. Diesels just don't light my fire, simple as.

exactly the sme for me, I have driven several of what are regarded as the best diesels about and they are just not fun
 
Thanks for the responces guys, this is the sort of debate I was looking for.

Personally, I relish driving experience over outright performance, so the spec has little to do with it for me. Diesels just don't light my fire, simple as.

This is how I used to think until a good friend of mine bought a new E46 330d. At the time I took the mick out of him but when I drove it, I was astonished by the torque it had and how well it went. I had an E36 M3 at the time and although they were very different cars, I was again surprised at how effortless his diesel went in the midrange - If we were out in both cars and I wasn't carefull, he could catch me in the wrong gear and make me look a bit silly.

The thing that used to get to me was that although the M3 was obv a better driving experience, on long journeys (Aberdeen to Newcastle for example) he always seemed to enjoy himself as much as me but also get better mpg. This probably says more about my driving style becoming more akin to that of my old man.

I think its my head saying 'go diesel - its sensible and more economical' but my heart saying 'sod the economy, go for the petrol and enjoy the drive more'.

n
 
Personally, I relish driving experience over outright performance, so the spec has little to do with it for me. Diesels just don't light my fire, simple as.

Same for me really, also there is the noise factor, it is very important to me that the engine makes the right 'noise' ...diesels of any description just don't.

Every diesel I have ever driven, including the very good BMW 3.0 V6 unit (never driven the twin turbo unit though) has felt distinctly leaden and slow to respond compared to the instant response of a good petrol engine. I always feel like you really have to wind a diesel up and then you have to keep them in their usually fairly narrow torque zone or they basically die. The best way I can describe it is to say that everyone I have ever driven has lacked the zest and the zing, the urgency of a petrol engine.
 
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Good taste, good move.

Mine will get a remap soon, was your old 330d remapped?

Natural progression, I'm going to see one tomorrow :eek:. Will be a car I intend to keep forever though, so it has to be perfect!

The 330d was remapped by Simon remember - day before Donnington ;). Best £275 I spent on that car.
 
What did it remap to? I giuess the E46 330d is virtually identical to the E90 325D engine other than the addition of ED?

I said I want something very conservative and he's quoting 230bhp & 475nm, should 1/4 in 14.5 seconds which is insane bearing in mind it needs 3rd to pass 60mph.
 
What did it remap to? I giuess the E46 330d is virtually identical to the E90 325D engine other than the addition of ED?

I said I want something very conservative and he's quoting 230bhp & 475nm, should 1/4 in 14.5 seconds which is insane bearing in mind it needs 3rd to pass 60mph.

Heh - I said exactly the same. The normal map was 220bhp/450Nm iirc, he put a milder map on with RR'ed at 210bhp/475Nm.

For me, regardless of power, it made the car a lot better to drive. Here are the two power graphs:

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p276/endeeci/330d/before.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p276/endeeci/330d/after.jpg

Removing the 'Table Mountain' setup is probably what makes it a bit more interesting.
 
Heh - I said exactly the same. The normal map was 220bhp/450Nm iirc, he put a milder map on with RR'ed at 210bhp/475Nm.

For me, regardless of power, it made the car a lot better to drive. Here are the two power graphs:

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p276/endeeci/330d/before.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p276/endeeci/330d/after.jpg

Removing the 'Table Mountain' setup is probably what makes it a bit more interesting.

The ambient Temp will take a fair difference though.
 
Seeing that extra torque at 4,000 rpm has just sold me on it. Most people seem just as impressed with the improved throttle response as the extra grunt.

Some goons at bmwland (or it may in fact be a similar forum but it's not in my laptop fav's) seem to have convinced themselves e90 325d's are making 210-215bhp on stock maps (198bhp standard), I just can't help feeling they don't understand the variables of a RR session and they're deluding themselves.

230bhp will do me nicely.
 
I chose the diesel over the 4.2 petrol because it suited the car and it's purpose brilliantly. The fact it outperforms it as well is a bonus.

Everything else, pretty much agree with Houseys last post

I said I want something very conservative and he's quoting 230bhp & 475nm, should 1/4 in 14.5 seconds which is insane bearing in mind it needs 3rd to pass 60mph.

14.5? That's impressive.
 
/sighs ....straight 6 then.

I don't even know why I wrote a V then, probably got confused, talking about so many different cars and engines all the time.
 
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