Poll: Poll: UK General Election 2017 - Mk II

Who will you vote for?


  • Total voters
    1,453
  • Poll closed .
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Associate
Joined
11 Nov 2003
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1,696
Location
South Yorkshire
Exactly correct - I don't need free school meals for my kids - it should just remain as help for those on benefits.

Giving free stuff to those that dont need it is just vote winning waste of taxpayers money.
Do you *need* an NHS that's free at the point of use when you can afford private healthcare? Do you *need* free access to libraries when you can afford to buy books? Do you *need* public schools when you can afford to send your children to private?

The answer to all the above is: no, if you're well-off. But what these things do is provide a level playing field. We have a well-funded health service that provides a good -- and free at the point of use -- service and that's available to everyone regardless of what they earn, if anything. The alternative is that the rich get a better service and the poor have only access to poor services, or a lifetime of debt (as often happens in the USA). We have to access to books for education or leisure without having to pay extra; we can enrich our lives without worrying about the cost. We have an education system that works well for the majority.

The point of free school meals is that every child is given the opportunity to have a good meal every weekday. This has been shown to improve the ability to concentrate and hence learn. I'm all for making it means tested, but there are downsides to that too. It costs money to administer. It's not infallible: some parents who didn't meet the criteria go without food themselves to pay for lunch for their children. Some parents choose to provide lunch for their children, and fill them with rubbish. Children who have their meals paid for by the state get singled out as being 'poor'. If school meals are means tested, I think the alternative should be that the parents pay for the *same meals* as the means tested children. Everyone gets their lunch from the cafeteria, nobody is singled out.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,623
I suspect they haven't voted yet.
Likely to a degree but OCUK poll has basically mirrored a large set of national polls that have all shown a massive swing towards Labour. The OCUK in itself is pretty useless, I'm far more interested in the act that numerous national polls with a scientific methodology showing the Tories at a 5-6% lead in many cases, 10-11% at the most in other polls. Tories will almost certainly still win but it will not be the landslide they foolishly thought was a certainty. There is a very definite possibiltiy that the Tories loose seats.
 
Man of Honour
Joined
13 Oct 2006
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92,043
I think the key point you make is it is different times. We will never have a traditional land war on our doorstep ever again (on the caveat that military technology does not morph in some as yet unknown way) so taking a more considered approach to deciding whether or not to bomb someone to oblivion is probably a decent idea. Europe has been more restrained than ourselves for the past two decades and are hardly being crushed, it's actually US with the UK over enthusiastically following in some sort of old imperial wet dream that hasn't particularly helped.

It's a hard one to define but personally having a lot of friends in the military I would much rather we didn't fight and looking st the scandanvians and most other countries who don't get involved they aren't in a bad place because of this.

I don't agree that the world has changed quite that much though in many ways it has in appearances and we certainly can't be complacent about the future even though increased global stakes, communications, economy and other interests make traditional big war far less likely than probably any time in modern history.

Relatively speaking we aren't that far removed from the earlier parts of the 1930s where globalisation was taking off in a big way and for the time large industry, etc. had unprecedented global stakes - many expressed the exact same views as you right upto the point where war broke out - even denying it as Germany built up the deployment of a massive war machine.

Point of my post is personally I believe complacency is the enemy of peace and that indiscriminate use of appeasement like and other soft policies does not actually make the world a safer place.
 
Soldato
Joined
1 Jul 2008
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2,560
Location
Birmingham
Did you and others with such claims even look at how many have voted so far in this new poll created on 29th May, compared to how many voted in the old poll? ;)

Old poll final vote tally: 1659
New poll vote 31/5 @ ~1055: 634

It's far too soon to say there has been a major swing to Labour, over 1000s members still need to vote who voted in the last poll! ;)

True - I can't disagree,

Although, what you have suggested that only our Labour voters use the forum regularly / have voted? :D
 
Soldato
Joined
9 Jun 2006
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5,792
The point of free school meals is that every child is given the opportunity to have a good meal every weekday. This has been shown to improve the ability to concentrate and hence learn. I'm all for making it means tested, but there are downsides to that too. It costs money to administer. It's not infallible: some parents who didn't meet the criteria go without food themselves to pay for lunch for their children. Some parents choose to provide lunch for their children, and fill them with rubbish. Children who have their meals paid for by the state get singled out as being 'poor'. If school meals are means tested, I think the alternative should be that the parents pay for the *same meals* as the means tested children. Everyone gets their lunch from the cafeteria, nobody is singled out.
You seem to be missing the point. ALL children do not get free school dinners already, only year 1-3, from Year 3 up it's based on familes who need the help get the dinners for free.

The proposal is instead of free dinners to children in yr 1-3 for families who can afford to pay a little for a school lunch, ALL children yr 1-6 get a free breakfast and (as I say i'm guessing at this bit but it makes sense) a free extra half an hour of morning childcare which is a huge help to working families and ALL children from families who need help continue to get free school lunch.

Jeeze, it's the same old Labour spin for a cheap headline which just gets repeated.
 
Caporegime
Joined
17 Feb 2006
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29,263
Location
Cornwall
Means-testing is exactly for this kind of thing. I don't know why they don't do it.
Playing devil's advocate here... what happens if you means-test everything?

You might end up disenfranchising people who work and support themselves, when the state does "nothing" for you, but you see hand-outs for those who aren't "contributing" in the same way.

Now I'm not saying I agree with this, hence the quotes. But perhaps there is an argument for not means testing everything, to the point where some people pay for "everything" themselves, and some people have "everything" given to them. Ultimately, I guess it depends on what the treasury can afford, and whether the trade-off in goodwill is worth the cold hard cost in cash.

But as much as means-testing is certainly a good idea in principle, total reliance on it could be fractious and lead to more division/resentment. Ultimately what we want is a society where everybody is paid enough to live, and very few people are left in a situation where need state assistance, or are obviously better off not working. Heck, even part-time work should be enough to live frugally. Whereas atm we have people working 40+ hour weeks and still earning so little that the state has to help them with basic essentials.

The current situation where we let employers pay less than the cost of living, and require the state to make up the shortfall with various benefits... surely everybody on both side of the political spectrum should be opposed to this? The only people benefiting from this are the employers.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,623
And soemthign the Tories should worry about, the polls giving them a 10-12% lead tend to be having a large adjustment for liekly turnout. E.g, the ICm poll has the the Tories only 3% ahead of labour in raw numbers but by using a model of expected voting likelihood that was pushed to 11%. This model was heavily changed after the 2015 election where the polls correctly identified actually voting tendencies but had larger errors in the voter turnout. It is yet to be seen how much better the newer models are and one has to take into account that even if the models are accurate for historic data they may not match up this election due to unique circumstances. We have seen a record number of young people register to vote in this election, and these people are much more liekly to vote for labour.
 
Soldato
Joined
1 Mar 2010
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14,413
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5 degrees starboard
Just looked at a poll of polls in a newspaper (Independant I think) based on age.

Older (not specified) ~65% tory ~25% labour 10% others.
Younger (not specified) ~65% labour ~25% tory 10% others.

May explain something.
 
Soldato
Joined
9 Jun 2006
Posts
5,792
So it looks like Labour is planning to go after inheritance tax as well now almost halving the IHT allowance for someone who happens to have a relatively expensive family home despite if it's in London, the South east and other areas the house being relatively modest. It really is the politics of hate anyone who has worked hard to do well for themselves or wants to provide for their family. Children will have to sell the family home they grew up in if their parents pass away to foot the bill for Labours plans to give billions to multinational companies to buy them out in privatisation.

Oh well done labour - let's all just give up ever aspiring to work hard and look after our families and be done with it as you load tax on tax on tax and try to kill the economy putting people out of work at the same time.

What will fund the NHS then - magic money I supposed just based on more borrowing and hope we never have to repay it.

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/pe...2017-Labour-Jeremy-Corbyn-inheritance-tax-IHT
 
Soldato
Joined
29 Jul 2013
Posts
8,584
You seem to be missing the point. ALL children do not get free school dinners already, only year 1-3, from Year 3 up it's based on familes who need the help get the dinners for free.

The proposal is instead of free dinners to children in yr 1-3 for families who can afford to pay a little for a school lunch, ALL children yr 1-6 get a free breakfast and (as I say i'm guessing at this bit but it makes sense) a free extra half an hour of morning childcare which is a huge help to working families and ALL children from families who need help continue to get free school lunch.

Jeeze, it's the same old Labour spin for a cheap headline which just gets repeated.
The media spin on this drove me up the wall. It was almost like no newspaper had actually read/listened to anything factual.
 
Caporegime
Joined
20 Jan 2005
Posts
45,767
Location
Co Durham
Russia would be left with no major population centres, no government and no infrastructure. Those living beyond the reach of the immediate explosion and fallout would likely perish from famine. Russia would be finished.

Britain would never launch a first strike against a major nuclear power, for the same reason they'll not first strike us. They don't want the above to happen to them.

People really need to be better educated on these matters.

*cough. Fallon has said May would not hesitate to launch a first strike if the circumstances were right so you are soooooooooooooo wrong there.
 
Soldato
Joined
20 Oct 2004
Posts
13,104
Location
Nottingham
Oh well done labour - let's all just give up ever aspiring to work hard and look after our families and be done with it as you load tax on tax on tax and try to kill the economy putting people out of work at the same time.

I'm not sure what all the worry is, once Brexit kicks in and we are flooded with sovereignty and our soon to be "Global Britain" trade partners start shipping gold by the boat load we will be in surplus in mere months. All that is on top of the spare £350m a week we have. I expect we will be burning money by Xmas to stop it from blocking the roads etc.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,623
Just looked at a poll of polls in a newspaper (Independant I think) based on age.

Older (not specified) ~65% tory ~25% labour 10% others.
Younger (not specified) ~65% labour ~25% tory 10% others.

May explain something.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...gistration-under25-young-people-a7757976.html


1 million young people registered to vote in the last month. The real question is how motivated theya re to turn up to the polling booth. The current polling models give them a low turnout, if that model is wrong there could eb quite the upset for the Tories. Eqully, the narrowing of the recent polls may simply disappear on the day if the young Pepe don;t get off their backside.
 
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