His post included the nuance of the situation whereas your post repeats disingenuous simplified view of the situation. MoD is correct to stick to this story for formality but we are not official representatives of the country or the military and can have nuanced discussion on the subject without having to resort to dismissing somebody's input into the discussion as one of a foreign agent. The idea that intelligence services would finance somebody to sway public opinion on a niche hardware forum is so out of touch that it implies your ability to have any valuable discourse on the subject at hand highly improbable.
Potentially kicking off in Russia
- Thread starter nutsnut
- Start date
His post included the nuance of the situation whereas your post repeats disingenuous simplified view of the situation. MoD is correct to stick to this story for formality but we are not official representatives of the country or the military and can have nuanced discussion on the subject without having to resort to dismissing somebody's input into the discussion as one of a foreign agent. The idea that intelligence services would finance somebody to sway public opinion on a niche hardware forum is so out of touch that it implies your ability to have any valuable discourse on the subject at hand highly improbable.
They entered Ukrainian waters, simples, there is nothing more to it than that.
You can talk all you want but that's what it is.
So you are saying Russia/ China etc don't pay people to sow disinformation? Think you need a reality check.
You don't need to repeat what MoD said, it was posted here as soon as the twit went up, by me in fact.
Regarding astroturfing, I am 99.99% sure that the Russian government is not paying somebody to sway your opinion on ocuk forums. Larger social media platforms manipulation is plausible but not definitely not here.
Most unreasonable views can be explained through bias or lack of information on the subject. For examples what you keep bringing to this thread is utterly useless and a bit aggressive (calling people shills) yet I do not think you're a shill, I just think you are just a misinformed individual with a significant bias, that's all there is to it, which is fine, you can present your view but please don't accuse others of such silliness as astroturfing on a niche hardware forum.
Associate
- Joined
- 17 Nov 2018
- Posts
- 483
Boris's exscuse for getting Briatin invo;lved in Amerca's spats with Russia and China? the standard 'NATO commitments'. Britain's done more than it's fair share of 'NATO commitments'.
What bias?
The waters are Ukrainian.
End of story.
Going by your logic we should have let Hitler have Europe because he planted his flag and said all this land/water is now mine.
Yeah.
I'm a member on a forum that has far fewer users than Overclockers. 5 members have been banned in the last year as they were suspected (IP / pattern of posting / language used) of acting on behalf of the Russian disinformation ministry. It was blatent. It's a forum with users mainly from the US, Canada and mainland Europe and has topics from Spaceflight, Aviation, general chat, computing etc.
There were clearly different people posting on the same account - different language level, different types of phrases used. At times literally parroted offical government lines. All only posted in topics surrounding Russia. IPs were traced back to St Petersburg. Only posted at certain times of the day. Used clearly scripted text etc etc. The owners of the forum are an international media company and they agreed with the mods findings. They said they get this across multiple websites, from all sorts of forum and community sizes.
So not adding anything about anyone here, but don't discount it from happening.
De jure they are Ukrainian, yes. You've said it 3 times now. There is a lot more nuance to it as I said previously and as many people have written here. Have a read through this thread, you might find it useful.
And you don't have to reply to this post that it was Ukrainian waters for the fourth time, as at this point it is clear that it is there only thing you can contribute to this thread other than redactio ad hitlerum logical fallacies.
I wouldn't be so sure - these forums are quite prevalent when you run Google searches! Not saying the person in question is by the way or that it actually happens here! Just that it wouldn't surprise me.
After all, how much effort is it really to steer conversations in certain directions, to sow discord or misrepresent things to favour one side over another? It's not about making people change their minds necessarily but bringing out of the woodwork people that hold those same beliefs. People that would ordinarily not voice them as they'd be in the minority. Once they're out and talking your job is done!
No, there are zero nuances to it.
The waters are Ukrainian, Crimea is Ukrainian.
The ship was not fired upon ( not one single bit of footage shows any of this )
So what am I missing?
Interesting. I would still think there is a more plausible explanation such as expats, or users genuinely having interest in this subject/ field that may be based on Russia. People jump to accusing others of shilling far to eagerly, when a mere bias from political views or simply nationality could explain their view/position.
But clearly if internal investigation had evidence of could play then astroturfing might have been the case. I wonder what benefit that could bring for a state sponsoring it.
Same as any type of state sponsored propaganda. Exactly that - they are trying to push out a narrative that they are not the ones causing problems or doing the wrong doing. That International courts / recognised systems are biased against them, despite the fact in some cases clear evidence and facts say otherwise. Also they want people living in their country (in this case Russia) to see on an international platform that what their government is pushing internally is being seen externally..therefore there must others that feel the same. Sow division, cast doubt on international norms. They also want to add confusion. whataboutism is the order of the day - try and equalise something which cannot be remotely compared. I doubt much of these government run farms (like the one in St Petersburg) on forums has much of an impact , but the likes of Bots (and real humans) on twitter and facebook clearly do and they are probably run out of the same offices.
Of course some can be perfectly plausable and i've come across many. But those more vilurant, those clearly just parroting government lines and using different terminology from one day to the next, one hour to the next. It's clear who they are.
Who controls Crimea?
Hitler once controlled France.
So, I guess we should have left them to it eh.
The waters are internationally recognised as as being Ukrainian as is Crimea.
Last edited:
Ignoring that poster pointing out that they're Ukrainian waters, suppose for the sake of argument they're Russian waters, it's still a recognised shipping lane right?
We don't make Russian navy vessels maneuver around the north coast of Scotland and ban them from entering the English channel, they're allowed to transit through despite it being UK waters as it is a shipping lane.
Was there a majority of ethnically German people in France?
That isn't me finding it acceptable btw, but it's a fact that Ukraine has lost Crimea and unless they get it back it will eventually be recognised as Russian
Last edited:
Got to agree with this, it's realpolitik in action where IRL possession of the Crimea by a nuclear armed state is now a fact of life regardless of international law so, unless someone wants to start a war against Russia to get it back, even though no-one will outwardly legally identify it as new Russian territory, it'll just be considered as a part of Russia behind closed doors by everyone and Putin knows this.
Russia will get continual sanctions against them while they hold it though. It's hurting their economy quite a bit atm and only going in one direction, which is down. They will never admit it, but everyone can see it's going down the toilet.
Like with the USSR it will get to a point where they just can't afford it, or afford a war.
Like with the USSR it will get to a point where they just can't afford it, or afford a war.
For that argument I present Germany after the signing of the Treaty of Versailles along with pushing Russia further into China's sphere as counters.
Maybe we'll get lucky and Russians direct their anger in the right direction, I won't hold out for it though.
Maybe we'll get lucky and Russians direct their anger in the right direction, I won't hold out for it though.
You don't need to ignore what he was saying, they are de jure Ukrainian waters, internationally and crucial according to the UK but it is important to remember that they are de facto Russian territorial waters and although they were sheepish in this particular interaction, they could be a bit more aggressive in the next one. This is not simple at all and the main point of my post was first to point out that saying they're are simply Ukrainian waters misrepresents the situation and is unhelpful and secondly, calling people shills when they provide useful nuance is just silly but he clearly did not get the message as he just keeps repeating that Crimean is de jure Ukrainian, which nobody is even disputing.
I am not sure what kind of a reply you are expecting from me, I've made my input at the begging of the thread. As I said previously I am not knowledge on the topic of shipping lane rights so I cannot provide any meaningful input in that regard although if somebody has knowledge regarding maritime law please share with us, I would be very interested to see whether according to the international/maritime law HMS Defender had to reply Russian coast guard when they demanded to alter their course or they were within their right to continue on their course without even acknowledging existence of the Russian coast guard (separate questions - one is if they had to alter their course when asked and if they have to reply the Russian coast guard - this question goes probably into recognition of Russian coast guard as Crimean, which is probably not straightforward and would go into occupational law, at least in de jure terms).
I was surprised HMS Defender wasn't rammed like the Russians did back in 1988 but I heard a US General/Official or something rather said that the reason the Russian coast guard did not do it was because they simply could not keep up with HMS Defender because the engine in their boats was supposed to be German before sanctions but because of sanctions they had to install Chinese engines that could not keep up with the UK warship, which is just hilarious. I wonder how true this is, it would make sense to take US official words regarding Russia with a pinch of salt though.