Power to Mick Lynch

[visibleman]

A fully automated, national railway network even in say 40 years is improbable.

That's why metro/underground networks being converted have been/are being discussed, similar to what other cities have done as it's vastly "simpler", rather than the entire over ground network which we all know is a herculean task to automate.

 

[osc89er]

LOL yup, I note the redundancies are voluntary redundancies and they've had 5000 volunteers:

Rail workers inundate voluntary redundancy scheme – despite strikes over job cuts

More than 5,000 applications to quit cast doubt over rationale behind summer travel chaos

www.telegraph.co.uk

The shift pay argument seems fair enough if that's true, the stuff about new roles is suspect, I suspect individuals aren't getting their/ grades downgraded but rather new staff will be.

If you've automated a ticket office etc.. but pledged not to lay people off (save for voluntary redundancies) then you'll have to find other roles for people. I suspect that going forwards, with modernisation, some roles/pay grades won't be needed.

It just seems like a mix, some of it is reasonable grievances some of it is a bunch of Luddites contributing to inefficiency.

So the article itself makes some of this clear ish.

The mostly management grades submitted 2000 network rail voluntary severance applications

The current strikes are not by the management grades and they are asking for no compulsory redundancies and to be able to do voluntary only.

That said, maybe management don't want to give that without agreement on which types of jobs will change, how, and which will go. I suspect a lack of trust between sides.

 

[ChrisUK1983]

So the article itself makes some of this clear ish.

The mostly management grades submitted 2000 network rail voluntary severance applications

The current strikes are not by the management grades and they are asking for no compulsory redundancies and to be able to do voluntary only.

That said, maybe management don't want to give that without agreement on which types of jobs will change, how, and which will go. I suspect a lack of trust between sides.

Management grades are currently being balloted for strike action by their union TSSA, won't be long till they're joining RMT on the picket lines.

 

[Irish_Tom]

This is basically complete non-sense that would take a while to deconstruct. How do you propose to tax someone owning a company and selling their shares in it, if the tax was 100% then no one would sell shares? If their company becomes too valuable should they be forced to sell shares? What if your house becomes too valuable, will the tax man also come? If not then they could just buy property. If they can come for your property, then you've basically decided the state should be able to confiscate private property, presumably by force? You realise you're creating a huge sum of problems simply because you don't like people being "too" rich (by your arbitrary sum of "few of million"? As a society our standard of living has never been higher, despite your envy regarding other people's wealth, you actually have an insanely high standard of living compared with any other time in history, or almost any other place. Yet still people complain.

Try to understand that no one is poor because Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk created companies that employ hundreds of thousands of people, pay billions in tax, and create vast amounts of economic activity. It is actually quite the opposite.

You’re right, but this somewhat misses the point.

For most people (to varying degrees), their dignity and self-worth is based on comparisons to, and feedback from, their peers. No one cares that living conditions are better now than they were 30 years ago (never mind 100 or 1,000 years ago) because that’s to be expected. No one cares that we have it better than some 3rd world country, again that’s to be expected for one of the wealthiest counties in the world. What people do care about is their standing and prosperity in relation to their neighbours, countrymen, and those who live in similarly wealthy countries.

There are some valid criticisms of Thomas Piketty’s methodology in “Capital in the Twenty-first Century” but the trends he identifies are hard to ignore, and they have only gotten worse since the book was first published in 2013. What he highlights is that whenever the relative wealth gap between the richest and poorest in society reaches the kinds of levels we see today, there can be huge upheavals through revolution (violent and/or technological) or war.

I don’t believe that Piketty’s solution of a global wealth tax is viable (or @Combat squirrel’s solution for that matter) but I also appreciate the context in which those kinds of suggestions stem from.

To some degree, the ire directed towards the multi-millionaires and billionaires is misplaced. It should be directed towards the politicians and institutions that perpetuate the status-quo — although sometimes these are one in the same. Unfortunately, many voters find themselves voting against their best interests (for a variety of reasons) and high-wealth individuals are a very visible indicator of the wider issues in society.

I don’t think we’re likely to get to the revolutionary stage, the British are generally too passive for that kind of thing anyway. But if things continue along the current lines, exacerbated by the cost of living crisis and impending recession, then things could start get ugly. I’d be surprised if we don’t see riots at some point in at least one of the larger cities.

*edited to fix the @ mention

 

[wesimmo]

You’re right, but this somewhat misses the point.

For most people (to varying degrees), their dignity and self-worth is based on comparisons to, and feedback from, their peers. No one cares that living conditions are better now than they were 30 years ago (never mind 100 or 1,000 years ago) because that’s to be expected. No one cares that we have it better than some 3rd world country, again that’s to be expected for one of the wealthiest counties in the world. What people do care about is their standing and prosperity in relation to their neighbours, countrymen, and those who live in similarly wealthy countries.

There are some valid criticisms of Thomas Piketty’s methodology in “Capital in the Twenty-first Century” but the trends he identifies are hard to ignore, and they have only gotten worse since the book was first published in 2013. What he highlights is that whenever the relative wealth gap between the richest and poorest in society reaches the kinds of levels we see today, there can be huge upheavals through revolution (violent and/or technological) or war.

I don’t believe that Piketty’s solution of a global wealth tax is viable (or @Combat squirrel’s solution for that matter) but I also appreciate the context in which those kinds of suggestions stem from.

To some degree, the ire directed towards the multi-millionaires and billionaires is misplaced. It should be directed towards the politicians and institutions that perpetuate the status-quo — although sometimes these are one in the same. Unfortunately, many voters find themselves voting against their best interests (for a variety of reasons) and high-wealth individuals are a very visible indicator of the wider issues in society.

I don’t think we’re likely to get to the revolutionary stage, the British are generally too passive for that kind of thing anyway. But if things continue along the current lines, exacerbated by the cost of living crisis and impending recession, then things could start get ugly. I’d be surprised if we don’t see riots at some point in at least one of the larger cities.

A nuanced reply to 2 extreme viewpoints.

Being against extreme wealth inequality isn't being against inequality in wealth, nor is it an attack on those that achieve extreme wealth.

 

[StriderX]

With a demoralised, scandal ridden Metropolitan Police as well as the biggest inequality gap and most severe gentrification which is being exploited by the political parties with no notion of the risks involved... I think London is ripe for a much more devastating riot than that pitiful kerfuffle in the aftermath of Mark Duggan's death.

 

[Tony Edwards]

So the article itself makes some of this clear ish.

The mostly management grades submitted 2000 network rail voluntary severance applications

The current strikes are not by the management grades and they are asking for no compulsory redundancies and to be able to do voluntary only.

That said, maybe management don't want to give that without agreement on which types of jobs will change, how, and which will go. I suspect a lack of trust between sides.

It is the just compulsory redundancy they are against but obviously right wingers will try to spin it. Even Tory MPs are lying so we cant expect their supppoter not to.

 

[wordy]

Great to see so many on here, OcUK of all places, supporting the striking workers. I’m in the public sector and have gotten a 1% pay rise. Good luck to the RMT.

 

[dowie]

We are entering the age of mass strikes which I for one fully support, we need to collapse the system, & make everyone realise its truly a crime to own so much money it would solve all the worlds problems, the enemies of humanity are the grotesquely rich, and always have been - hoarding obscene wealth is quite literally robbing your fellow man.

Anyone with over a few million needs to pay 100% tax, you simply don't need more than that to live an absurdly comfortable life.

This is pretty naive tbh. you're acting like these people are cartoon villains along the lines of Scrooge McDuck and his big pile of gold when in reality for a lot of people with "over a few million" that's just a function of their stake in say a business that has become successful.

It's not even clear what you mean by "needs to pay 100% tax" either.

 

[newbiejim]

7 October 2021

Dear Member of Parliament

Train leasing companies pay dividends of £1 billion during the pandemic year

This morning, my union published a new report showing that the three companies who own and lease trains on our network paid themselves dividends of £950 million last year. That’s equivalent to 50% of passenger revenue last year and 23% of the £8.3 billion the taxpayer put into the industry to keep it afloat. You can read the report in full here: https://bit.ly/3oBF5Gs

My members put their lives on the line last year to keep the country moving through the pandemic. Some paid with their lives. Passengers did everything they were asked to, staying away where necessary, travelling when they had so, adapting to radical changes and living with fear. Much of the country pulled together to keep Britain going.

But for some people the pandemic was just business as usual. For the three rolling stock companies (Roscos) who own the vast majority of Britain’s trains the pandemic has posed, as they say themselves, no risk at all. The government has taken over payment of their lease charges and it has refused to cap either these charges or dividend payments by the rolling stock companies.

In return for the government’s extraordinary largesse with taxpayers’ money the Roscos have paid out massive dividends during the pandemic year and most of that money will have disappeared into offshore parent companies in Jersey or Luxembourg.

While the Secretary of State tells my members they should put up with a pay freeze because they’re lucky to have a job, he’s signing blank cheques to people who are shuffling millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money into an opaque network of offshore companies.

The rolling stock industry has been a scandal for years. It is a broken model of train procurement, a relic from a period when the dogma of privatisation reigned supreme and it is high time to put it to an end. The government should be procuring trains and owning them itself not paying extortionate rents to parasites. But in the immediate term, I’m calling for a Windfall tax on the ROSCOs profits, which should be used to help fund a pay rise for staff and a fare rebate for passengers.

I hope you will support this call and write to the Secretary of State to this effect.

Yours sincerely,



Michael Lynch,

RMT General Secretary

 

[LeeUK]

I mean sure he's had some unfair questions, being asked if you're a Marxists is irrelevant and stupid for example - however, Rail workers are paid a lot and are abusing their position as vital workers by striking seemingly without any hesitation. The only people being punished are the public, the strikes are so ******* bad for people who are forced to use trains they're not proportionate to the actual conditions rail workers have. They're not being used as a last resort, they're being used as a go-to; and frankly the railway is terribly run anyway compared to the rest of Europe. Probably because a large part of the money must go to pensions and inflated salaries.

Paid a lot? Really? A lot are under £30K a year. I think you're getting mixed up with train drivers - who are not on strike (different union).

 

[dlockers]

Paid a lot? Really? A lot are under £30K a year. I think you're getting mixed up with train drivers - who are not on strike (different union).

He has made clear plenty of times that he doesn't even know what the strike is about. Ignore him.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Paid a lot? Really? A lot are under £30K a year. I think you're getting mixed up with train drivers - who are not on strike (different union).

He thinks a trade union is comparable to a cartel, and genuinely hasn't got a clue what the subject is about. He'd be better advised to stop posting in this thread and head down to Paddington to shout at the ticket machines instead.

He's obviously been caught in first class with a cattle class ticket and been salty every since.

 

[Roar87]

Paid a lot? Really? A lot are under £30K a year. I think you're getting mixed up with train drivers - who are not on strike (different union).

Is their pay low relative to the actual market reference for similar jobs? No. They are paid well for their role, they also have generous pensions as well as other benefits. A lack of pay rise is one the reasons cited for the strike, so I'm not sure what dLockers is going on about, the other reason is redundancies, but half the passengers have stopped using the trains? What other company wouldn't need to make some redundancies? They've said they'll try and make as many redundancies as possible voluntary, and believe they can get most of them done through volunteers. Is that enough to stop the strike? Nope.

He thinks a trade union is comparable to a cartel, and genuinely hasn't got a clue what the subject is about. He'd be better advised to stop posting in this thread and head down to Paddington to shout at the ticket machines instead.

He's obviously been caught in first class with a cattle class ticket and been salty every since.

I comment on the actual content of the post and this is the level of reply, always little digs. All these posts suggest I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about, you'd think it would be easy to reply with the facts and correct me. Nah, doesn't happen.

 

[LeeUK]

Is their pay low relative to the actual market reference for similar jobs? No. They are paid well for their role, they also have generous pensions as well as other benefits. A lack of pay rise is one the reasons cited for the strike, so I'm not sure what dLockers is going on about, the other reason is redundancies, but half the passengers have stopped using the trains? What other company wouldn't need to make some redundancies? They've said they'll try and make as many redundancies as possible voluntary, and believe they can get most of them done through volunteers. Is that enough to stop the strike? Nope.



I comment on the actual content of the post and this is the level of reply, always little digs. All these posts suggest I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about, you'd think it would be easy to reply with the facts and correct me. Nah, doesn't happen.

So we should all be striving for higher wages not accepting low wages just because another job pays lower. While the rich at the top get richer.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I comment on the actual content of the post and this is the level of reply, always little digs. All these posts suggest I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about, you'd think it would be easy to reply with the facts and correct me. Nah, doesn't happen.

We've tried that, you just start screeching about Jeremy Corbyn and comparing a cartel of landlords to a trade union.

 

[Roar87]

So we should all be striving for higher wages not accepting low wages just because another job pays lower. While the rich at the top get richer.

Absolutely, if you are unhappy with your wage I would encourage you to apply for better paid roles. What you shouldn't do is take a job where you know the salary, and then kick up a fuss and use your monopoly over the transport network to inconvenience and disrupt millions of people. If the conditions for workers on the train lines is so bad, then surely no one would be applying for the jobs? If no one applied then they'd have to pay more money. Of course each job has countless applicants because they actually pay well and have great benefits compared to similar roles.

 

[Tony Edwards]

Absolutely, if you are unhappy with your wage I would encourage you to apply for better paid roles. What you shouldn't do is take a job where you know the salary, and then kick up a fuss and use your monopoly over the transport network to inconvenience and disrupt millions of people. If the conditions for workers on the train lines is so bad, then surely no one would be applying for the jobs? If no one applied then they'd have to pay more money. Of course each job has countless applicants because they actually pay well and have great benefits compared to similar roles.

What is your point?

 

[Voltar]

He actually did a decent job on QT for the most part. I was pleasantly surprised as he was better performing than either of the milquetoast MPs on there.

 

[LeeUK]

Absolutely, if you are unhappy with your wage I would encourage you to apply for better paid roles. What you shouldn't do is take a job where you know the salary, and then kick up a fuss and use your monopoly over the transport network to inconvenience and disrupt millions of people. If the conditions for workers on the train lines is so bad, then surely no one would be applying for the jobs? If no one applied then they'd have to pay more money. Of course each job has countless applicants because they actually pay well and have great benefits compared to similar roles.

Maybe when they applied for the jobs the wages were inline with the cost of living. Everything else has gone up, including rail fares, but the wages haven't.