Pro Cycling Discussion 2018

[Dirk]

Gutted Nibali is now out of the tour. I can't help believe this years race and last years would have been much more colourful with Porte and Nibali in it to animate it.

More competition at the highest level is always good. I don't believe either Porte or Nibali are a real threat overall and would have dropped time on every important stage, but it would have been nice to have them in the pack. Right now the really dominant riders are just slightly off the level of the very best.

You should try reading the comments section of Cycling News after a Sky win article, the amount of whining, teeth gnashing and pant wetting is hilarious.

It's endlessly entertaining to me. Long may it continue! I've never been particularly partisan about my sports stars. I enjoy watching whichever athlete is at the top of their game and achieving amazing things, no matter the nationality. We get a once-in-a-generation rider like Froome and everyone is too blinded by their own vitriol to enjoy it. Just as well the poison hasn't spread to Tennis, otherwise Federer would be the most unpopular player in the world!

Can't help but agree. I wonder where they would be if they just marked Geraint? No silly attacks from the rest of the team, no Marc Soler getting in breakaways...just serve a leader and mark the attacks. I bet they'd be a lot closer than they are. Instead, they just have free spirit Landa bobbing about. (Disclaimer, I may eat my words if Sky blow up....but y'know...)

I've seen Movistar work well as a team in previous Grand Tours. Valverde, Quintana and perhaps a teammate or two together at the end of a big climbing stage. Taking it in turns to attack Froome, and when he was tired from chasing them all down, Quintana was able to ride away. They could have had three strong riders working together at the end of today's stage. All they have to do is sit on a Sky wheel until go time. It's a shambles!

 

[Dirk]

32 years since a French winner is really irritating them. I really hope Thomas and Froome stay 1 and 2 for the next 2 weeks just to **** them off even more! Hopefully they can use the booing in a positive way.

I'm sure they're inured to it by now. It's certainly cheering me up!

 

[One More Solo]

Can't help but agree. I wonder where they would be if they just marked Geraint? No silly attacks from the rest of the team, no Marc Soler getting in breakaways...just serve a leader and mark the attacks. I bet they'd be a lot closer than they are. Instead, they just have free spirit Landa bobbing about. (Disclaimer, I may eat my words if Sky blow up....but y'know...)

Probably there or thereabouts until they get smashed to bits in the TT, hence they have no choice but to attack which is made all but impossible by the pace climbs are being ridden at.

Regardless of whether Sky are riding clean, “clean” or not, their dominance is bad for the sport. It makes racing an extremely dull spectacle and that is ultimately what turns people off.

People still love Pantani despite being doped to the gills because he was instinctive and exciting, people hate Armstrong because his team choked races in exactly the same way Sky do. Half your team riding up a mountain at a pace people can barely sustain makes attacking impossible even for the most gifted riders. It’s a snoozefest.

I’m massively in favour of a salary or budget cap to try and redistribute some of the more talented riders around the peloton.

 

[UTmaniac]

Maybe the UCI should introduce a minimum rider (including kit) and bike combined weight, excluding water bottles. Something like ~80Kg, so a rider like Froome (currently ~68Kg) would get ~4Kg of ballast, while Tom Dumolin would (~71Kg) would get ~1Kg.

The likes of Froome look ill/unhealthy with how little they weigh, all in the aim of keeping an alien power to weight ratio up the hills.

Although the big difference in recent years is the silly budget Team Sky have, allowing them to mop up talent for fun and then use them as Watt saving domestiques for GT/Froome. Spreading out talent between teams would make things far more interesting for spectators.

 

[physichull]

I’m massively in favour of a salary or budget cap to try and redistribute some of the more talented riders around the peloton.

Probably won't work that well. Your intentions are good, but, as an avid follower of rugby league, which is a salary capped sport, the traditionally strong teams are still much stronger than the rest, despite spending the same on the salary cap. Its there to stop clubs spending beyond their means more than anything else. In fact it may be detrimental to the lower ranked teams as they will likely end up paying more for mediocre talent.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

I’m massively in favour of a salary or budget cap to try and redistribute some of the more talented riders around the peloton.

Sounds good in theory but you need to look at what s happening in F1 to see it doesn't work. How would technology of sport advance if there was budget cap?

 

[a1ex2001]

Sounds good in theory but you need to look at what s happening in F1 to see it doesn't work. How would technology of sport advance if there was budget cap?

Does cycling really need the technology, it's not like motor racing where the car and the driver have pretty much equal importance in the overall equation SKY would still be winning on any of the bikes or clothes used on the tour. I'm not sure a budget cap is the answer but it is always bad for a sport when one team dominates and while the way SKY go about it is very impressive it is often a little dull to watch.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

Does cycling really need the technology, it's not like motor racing where the car and the driver have pretty much equal importance in the overall equation SKY would still be winning on any of the bikes or clothes used on the tour. I'm not sure a budget cap is the answer but it is always bad for a sport when one team dominates and while the way SKY go about it is very impressive it is often a little dull to watch.

Put the Sky team on steel bikes with wooden wheels and brake pads and the rest of the peloton on carbon bikes I'm sure you would not see the Sky boys winning Al

 

[ShowdownPhil]

racing an extremely dull spectacle

Remind us what was dull about yesturday's Stage? The one with probably the greatest ever finish on Alpes d'Huez.

Or stage 11... where G attacked the rest of the challengers and stayed away.

Or Froome's 80km solo TT on Colle delle Finestre.

Or Adam Yates attacking this way and that in the first half of the Giro.

Or Froome's attack and a sprint between hill climbers on stage 3 of the Vuelta '17

Or the final stage of the Giro '17 with Dumoulin fending of the Niro and Nibali alliance in the final stage

I could go on...



To say pro bike racing these days is dull or boring is ridiculous. It's a hell of a lot more interesting that Wiggin's 2012 TdF win or Froome's 2013 TdF win. Folk just have their rose tinted glasses on remembering great stages from yesteryear, conveniently forgetting all the 'boring' stages where basically nothing happens.

 

[xdcx]

What the hell is up with this place?
From what I read, I understand you guys believe Team Sky are only where they are because they have the money to sign the best riders? Kwiat was a big name/money signing but Bernal is the youngest guy in the race. He could literally have gone either way and is no definite to be a super domestique as he is up and coming young talent. Froome and G have been with Sky for how long and come up the ranks themselves and built themselves to what they are now, so again, big salary and signing capabilities does not apply here for their top riders. They were made where they are.

The reason they are marginally better is legit or it's because of "the drugs omgz!1!". I do not see any other reason as to why they are marginally better with the team they are riding with compared AG2R or Movistar's team.... Why can't Valverde, Quintana and Landa ride like Sky did? Those guys are as experienced and at the top of the game, they just are not as good and someone has to be the best no matter what and shine compared the others. Someone has to win.

Dumoulin is insane. He has won a Giro, world TT champ and is now mixing it with Team Sky in the finale's of mountains. All of that done with essentially no team. Surely if Dumoulin had a G and a Kwiat he would be absolutely smashing everyone and winning back to back GT's? Where is the hate for Dumoulin? He is a 1% off the Team Sky top blokes and riding himself. Froome or G could not do what Dumoulin is doing based on what we see.

Allowing hatred of Team Sky take over your thoughts rather than everything else about the race is the only reason you could think this has been dull in an way what so ever. The Giro was a long time of Sky and Froome looking down and out and they rallied and the two Brittany stages, Roubaix stage and the passed two days of Alps has been awesome viewing.
Comparing the trains up the mountains of previous years is utter BS yet again because Dumoulin had a crack day before yesterday and Kruis gave it a hell of a go yesterday before we had a proper showdown on the last few K's.

Adding weight ballast to guys of certain weights? Is that a joke post? Surely it is a joke post.

p.s. I am not a Sky fanboy or fan. I like G and Kwiat as riders/personalities and have a man crush for Dumoulin. I also do not have the Team Sky hatred that seems to be essential to being a cycling fan these days though so try to be as neutral as possible.

 

[One More Solo]

It’s partly money, partly reputation. Sky are like Real Madrid, if you’re an up and coming rider and they show an interest you will more than likely say yes over a smaller team even if your opportunities may be limited somewhat. If you’re an established rider, they’ll pay you a chunky wage to sign. Bernal came to Sky with a good pedigree and a high ceiling - it’s really no great surprise to see him taking the lead on the mountains.

However, it’s not fair to point at guys like Quintana, Landa etc and say “if Sky are doing it, why can’t they?” The facts are:

-Sky ride the climbs at a pace they know is on the limit of sustainable for their team and by extension other GC riders.
-No one can attack because everyone is on the limit, if you do you end up like Quintana and get blown out the back after giving it a go, or at best dangle 20m off the front like Bardet/Nibali and get brought back by guys riding in the wheels. Sky then have the luxury of typically 3 or 4 riders in the front group who can pull those guys back without Thomas/Froome putting their nose in the wind. Thomas might have won yesterday’s stage but I don’t think he sat first wheel on the climb until the final corner. Smart riding, of course, but you can do that when the onus is on other teams to chase.
-Dumoulin is an immense talent (just like Sky’s riders) but is forced to ride defensively just to hang on. He can afford to do that though because unlike the smaller riders he is not going to get decimated in the TTs. Agreed with a better team he would probably dominate but he knows if he can hang with Sky then that’s good enough in all likelihood.

There have been some good stages in the Tour this year as you mentioned above - when I talk about dull racing I wasn’t specifically talking about yesterday (although the less said about the first Alps day the better). Notwithstanding that, a good race for Sky is one in which the variables are tightly controlled. That doesn’t always go to plan and on occasion they have shown more tactical nous, especially Froome (albeit his Giro stage win was an utter farce), but on the whole a boring race is a good race for them. Great for the team and the sponsors, bad for the fans.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

Honest question - why was the Froome stage win a farce?

 

[One More Solo]

“Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.“

 

[Berger]

“You’re being mean!”

 

[Jimbeam3678]

“Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.“

You quoted Lance Armstrong, I'm amusing in response to my post above - I think you need to spell it out for me. What makes you think Froome's stage was a farce?

 

[One More Solo]

I feel like this has been done to death and I have my view and you have yours and nothing will change either of our opinions but nevertheless I’ve set out my main reservations below.

Froome had shown no form at all in the preceding two weeks, often getting dropped on MTFs and finding himself in the position he was in. All of a sudden, in the third week of a GT, he finds a level and performance completely at odds with what he had shown before to deliver arguably the greatest GT stage win ever? A guy who not many years before was kicked out of the Giro for holding on to a race moto.

There was then the need for Sky to try and justify his performance by claiming a) he ate some food to do it (in what read like a multi page SiS advert) and b) he made up all the time on the descents.

a) goes without saying. I know we’re supposed to be impressed by Sky’s attention to detail as a result but the other side of the coin is this team let the same rider get so dehydrated a few months earlier that he failed a drug test. Richie Porte reckoned this was a piece of PR rather than evidence and I’m with him - all pro teams know how to fuel their riders and a ride like this will always result in a caloric deficit regardless of how good the feeding plan is.

b) is patently not true in the face of the GPS data yet has been repeated so many times it has become true (Make Froome Great Again!).

Individually all the elements of the data we have been given are plausible but performance doesn’t exist in a bubble, especially in a sport like cycling where each stage is in the context of a longer event, and each event is in the context of all the history that has gone before it. Froome’s ride was a huge outlier in both of those. Your willingness to accept that will ultimately come down to your existing view as I said at the outset. There is no right or wrong answer.

 

[Berger]

Wiggins saga.

Henao altitude native...

Tiernan-Locke biological passport (dehydrated after heavy drinking excuse not accepted).

No cleaner or dirtier than any other team, they all have skeletons in the closet and histories as well as individuals acting on their own.

People just aren’t a fan due to the huge budget and supposed strangulation of the sport but I think that’s just a modernisation of it.

Look at Barguil this year, crap compared to when he was on a WT team, gotta be down to all the little extras they can afford to provide and you know Sky will be doing them all and then some plus having the best team to start with.

 

[SoliD]

Wiggins on the live coverage today was quite a good listen. He had a proper dig at the politicians and the way the whole jiffy bag was treated and had some good answers to various questions about tues and what has and hasn't happened here there and everywhere in the peloton.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

Wiggins on the live coverage today was quite a good listen. He had a proper dig at the politicians and the way the whole jiffy bag was treated and had some good answers to various questions about tues and what has and hasn't happened here there and everywhere in the peloton.

What time was he on or how many miles were left? Got it recorded so want to catch that bit.

Cheers

 

[physichull]

I feel like this has been done to death and I have my view and you have yours and nothing will change either of our opinions but nevertheless I’ve set out my main reservations below.

Froome had shown no form at all in the preceding two weeks, often getting dropped on MTFs and finding himself in the position he was in. All of a sudden, in the third week of a GT, he finds a level and performance completely at odds with what he had shown before to deliver arguably the greatest GT stage win ever? A guy who not many years before was kicked out of the Giro for holding on to a race moto.

There was then the need for Sky to try and justify his performance by claiming a) he ate some food to do it (in what read like a multi page SiS advert) and b) he made up all the time on the descents.

a) goes without saying. I know we’re supposed to be impressed by Sky’s attention to detail as a result but the other side of the coin is this team let the same rider get so dehydrated a few months earlier that he failed a drug test. Richie Porte reckoned this was a piece of PR rather than evidence and I’m with him - all pro teams know how to fuel their riders and a ride like this will always result in a caloric deficit regardless of how good the feeding plan is.

b) is patently not true in the face of the GPS data yet has been repeated so many times it has become true (Make Froome Great Again!).

Individually all the elements of the data we have been given are plausible but performance doesn’t exist in a bubble, especially in a sport like cycling where each stage is in the context of a longer event, and each event is in the context of all the history that has gone before it. Froome’s ride was a huge outlier in both of those. Your willingness to accept that will ultimately come down to your existing view as I said at the outset. There is no right or wrong answer.

I'm still not sure what you are getting at here. Are you trying to say that Chris Froomes performance on that stage was dishonest? Because frankly, there is no evidence for it, so why therefore (and I'm presuming this from your "farce" remark) would you start off in the position that Froomes performance that day was dishonest?

“Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.“

Hindsight being what it is, the above quote is something I've wanted to repeat to the cynics and sceptics that still shout loudly today but given its source of origin its difficult to repeat in an argument without detracting from my point! It couldn't be a more apt quote though; sums up my thoughts on all those fans who jeer, boo, shove, punch and throw "liquid" at Team Sky. What is the point in those spectators being there, why follow cycling if that is the viewpoint and that's what they want to do?