Project managers

[nero120]

Just go back and say the same estimate then if you are unhappy to dedicate more time to it. I doubt the PM can assume your original 'guess' was as far as youre concerned wholly accurate without caveats...

/thread

ps3ud0

So the problem was that I used phrase 'I guess' rather than 'I estimate'? Maybe it's me but I would assume that a PM has half a brain enough to realise I didn't just roll a die and pick a number out of thin air...

 

[nero120]

He (Steve) is such an idiot!

Yeah you're right, why the hell did Apple ever hire him! I bet your incredible insight is an asset to your organisation

 

[nero120]

In this instance I would agree for a "few" days work it probably isnt worth it however a "few" days work can turn into a "few" weeks work when it becomes apparent the problem isn't as simple as first expected... the guy is taking an overall view of the situation... look at it from his point of view:

* you are new and therefore lack understanding of what's going on
* he has a "whole" project to look at not just one piece of development
* your one piece of development could have further implications down the line and cost money / time

In this instance I don't see the harm in asking for you to take a proper look at the problem, he is being cautious. In fairness an approach I would take with any developer I was not familiar with...

True, but is this not the case with any piece of work? There are unknowns, and you cannot expect a developer, especially one unfamiliar with a project, to be able to predict them all.

There is always the potential for big issues to crop up, I wouldn't have thought that one who has just been assigned to the project could forsee them so well, and the fact that the PM expects me to doesn't exactly leave me brimming with confidence.

What makes it worse is that I'm only doing this work because of this PMs inability to resource properly. I've been dragged off my project to help them.

 

[nero120]

That's Steve Ballmer, not Steve Jobs.

Rich

Oops! Apologies to all! That's what I get for doing 4 things at once.

I'll shut up now.

 

[nero120]

Nero, i'm not a PM, nor are any of my friends etc.

All you've done is shown yourself to have a very poor understanding of the role of a PM and what they do.

I could probably spend 30 minutes quoting all of your posts basically and ripping them to shreds but I just can't be bothered. I'm glad I don't work with you basically

That's good, I'm also glad I don't work for a snivelling know-it-all like yourself. How many times have I stated I'm ranting? Looks like this little detail escaped your wonderful powers of observation. The fact is, all you know is what I've told you, so basically you know **** all.

Have a nice day!

 

[nero120]

You can not predict all problems, however you can with some planning and proper methodology prevent a lot of them.. spending a sometime looking at the issue might seem a waste of time but I would rather my developers spend some time looking at the problem rather than jumping straight in and then coming back a week later saying...

"actually you know we said last week it would take 20 days.... well its going to take 45 days"

as a good PM you manage and eliminate as much risk as possible, this means having a good understanding of the problem and good planning.. In this instance for two days work I would agree is probably a little overzealous.. but better safe than sorry sometimes

Thankfully one other person in this thread has shown some intelligence. Cheers Pneumonic.

 

[nero120]

nero120 you don't seem like much of a team player. Maybe you'd be more suited to a role where you don't have to interact with anyone, in case they ask you a tricky question?

Wow you certainly know me! Who gave you my file?

Lol at the armchair psychologists on here! God what was I thinking posting in GD...

 

[nero120]

Ah this sounds more familiar! Oh the joy that is the PM!

 

[nero120]

For example: 27 posts in this thread alone between 10:00am this morning and 1:54pm.

With non-work related use of the internet like that, no wonder the PM wants to know how long it will take to to do a piece of work.....

Guess you haven't heard of a little thing called 'compile time'.

 

[nero120]

Give over!! This is the 21st century, not the mid-80's when a COBOL program needed 30mins or so to go through several passes.

A minute of compile time is easily long enough to reply to some half witted post

 

[nero120]

Can you not use this 'Compile Time' to think abut more accurate estimations for the required tasks?

Lol, typical PM response. Yeah a minute's break is easily enough for me to stop what i'm doing, move onto something else, engross myself in the architectural and logical components of a project and refine my estimation. Bloody hell.

Guys, at least try to engage brain before posting.

 

[nero120]

The biggest irony of all, is that having looked through the previous devs code on this project I am now thinking of starting a thread called 'Crap Devs '

 

[nero120]

It must be hard being the brightest person in your organisation but right at the bottom of the hierachy. So much angst.

Don't worry, they love me! I'm just taking it out on you guys

p.s. as a certified MOSS developer, I'm actually a ways up

 

[nero120]

I had a PM (actually a reasonably good one) say something like this to me once.

I had just put in a 39 hour weekend (after doing a 37.5 hour week) to perform some maintenance. I had everything originally worked out so it would be more or less automated, and I could do it over VPN.

However VPN went down that weekend so I had to go into the office. To kick off the jobs, and the SA didn't disable the Cron as he was supposed to (and didn't give a mobile number) so I had to spend time removing the output of backups that didn't need to be run and clearing down log files to ensure space was available, as well as re-running jobs that had been knackered by the backup process.

So all in All I got very little sleep had to work like a dog over the weekend. But I hit my target on completing the activity and bringing the system back online before start of business Monday.

I told the PM about this and she asked what I did whilst waiting between jobs to complete. I told her I did what any normal person would do, I put my head down for a nap. She responded with "Surely you could have been more productive by doing some documentation".
There's gratitude for you.

Damn that is harsh, you are far more justified for a rant than I!

 

[nero120]

granted a lot of pm's are bad, however developers hate to be managed and most have the social skills of the ginger orangutang along with the grooming habits.

trying to spec out a project plan and timeline when all you get is 'dont know' can be challenging.

Actually, I really do like having a good PM as it tends to make my life much easier. Its just that they are so few and far between, and sometimes somethings gotta give. That day was today! Apologies OCUK!

 

[nero120]

Shame that MOSS is an absolute pile of horse manure.

It's actually a very well placed product and great if it is a well priced all in one ECM/WCM/Search solution your organisation is looking for.

Sound like you are rubbish at explaining and have a lack of understanding yourself. Thats not the PMs fault.

I didn't realise you were privvy to the conversation? I only posted in haste so ease up mate.

 

[nero120]

I am glad I fall into this category then...

Never realised there was so much negative feeling about PM's... I get the odd person with a bad attitude but in general once people realise that you know what your talking about and are going to make their lives easier they normally come round and work with you

The best PMs I've worked with have been organised and given me the information and time I need to do my job, rather than working against me and trying to force the work to suit their timescales. And I agree, they are usually the ones who have been developers in the past, but I don't think it is a necessity, just something to give them some perspective and vision outside of their gantt chart.

 

[nero120]

No its terrible. I've seen it implemented in several different enterprises and the amount of time developers waste making it do things it can't do out of the box could have been spent on bespoke solution.

I think that's a flaw in the architect/dev rather than the product. But I do agree it can be mis-implemented due to it's Microsoft label and it's 'one product to rule them all' tagline.

I don't think that you could call it terrible though, Microsoft have sold a lot of licenses for this product!

The comment wasn't aimed at you. Look who I quoted.

Sorry, itchy reply button today!

 

[nero120]

...

You sir, are a rare breed! Kudos!

 

[nero120]

Fair comment. It does some things well, but some people seem to expect and want more out of MOSS and it struggles to deliver.

Out of the box it really does do an awful lot, and there is an amazingly deep API with which to customise it if it doesn't do what you want out of the box. It does a great job of rivalling much more expensive, specialised products.