Project managers

[TW]Fox;14148182 said:
Sounds like you are a bit bitter :) A good PM plays an important role in an organisation.
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and if it is so easy and overpaid then why pray is the OP not doing it instead of sweating it as a softwear developer?
 
[TW]Fox;14148182 said:
Sounds like you are a bit bitter :) A good PM plays an important role in an organisation.
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As does a good developer. Why am I bitter? If I give a PM an estimate I expect them to take it and deal with it, not moan about whatever. I don't moan when a PM gives me a task, I get it done and I try to give them a reasonable estimation as to how long it will take.

They do their job, I do mine, project gets done. Projects fail because PMs are incapable of managing them properly, not because devs are unable to do their tasks.
 
Being a over-paid, hyped-up admin assistant myself :p

I don't see what's unreasonable in what he has asked...

1. Do some analysis on the project / problem
2. Break said problem done into tasks
3. Assign some rough time-scales against said tasks
4. come back with an estimate

Surely that's part of any good agile development methodology?

To be honest a good PM can make your life much easier; decent communication between various parts of the organisation, ensuring 1/2 decent project specifications for development, client feedback, ensuring that your time is used to develop and not support etc... buffering all you poor little dev boys from the various political and other rubbish that fly's around most large organisations etc...

As for being over-paid well I can only talk from experience... but I am just finishing a project of implementing 1/2 baked software over 900 clients let me tell you working 70 hours a week for six plus weeks, managing 150+ people involved in the implementation, complaining clients and delicate flowers like yourself... I am worth every penny of my salary :p
 
nero120 said:
They do their job, I do mine, project gets done. Projects fail because PMs are incapable of managing them properly, not because devs are unable to do their tasks.
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I guess thats your opinion, I'm sure on a PM forum you'll find PM's saying projects fail because devs are incapable of doing tasks properly. There are two sides to every coin.
 
nero120 said:
If I wanted to be despised human filth I would be :)
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Oh dear. Definite bitterness here even if you don't care to admit it. Clearly you can't see why the PM earns more money than you, so you rail against it. He is in charge, you write code, get over it.
 
nero120 said:
As does a good developer. Why am I bitter? If I give a PM an estimate I expect them to take it and deal with it, not moan about whatever. I don't moan when a PM gives me a task, I get it done and I try to give them a reasonable estimation as to how long it will take.

They do their job, I do mine, project gets done. Projects fail because PMs are incapable of managing them properly, not because devs are unable to do their tasks.
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There are good and bad people in all organisations be them developers or Project Managers...
 
Bit confused what the issue is - the PM is there to facilate your work (aswell as others) so its in your best interests to make it plain to them how long x/y/z will take.

Considering you have only started on the project I can understand you were only able to guess the time needed, but I dont understand the issue that the PM has now asked you to review and confirm that guess. Hes not asking for a deadline, just an estimation of when you will deliver...

Seriously sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder and having an issue thats not really there...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
a1ex2001 said:
If you can't estimate to this extent then may I suggest your not quite the top developer you think you are?
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The Dude is doing his job just like you, Try to Help him do his job & then Maybe he will help you do yours. :cool:
 
[TW]Fox;14148296 said:
I guess thats your opinion, I'm sure on a PM forum you'll find PM's saying projects fail because devs are incapable of doing tasks properly. There are two sides to every coin.
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It is my opinion, but since it is the PMs responsibility to deliver the project, if his devs are not up to it he can flag it to the program manager, who will reassign/replace them. I think any PM who blames his devs for failing to do his job properly clearly is not worth spit.
 
[TW]Fox;14148304 said:
Oh dear. Definite bitterness here even if you don't care to admit it. Clearly you can't see why the PM earns more money than you, so you rail against it. He is in charge, you write code, get over it.
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Indeed come and stand in my shoes for a day and then tell me sitting at a desk writing code is more difficult in comparison...

For informational purposes I started life as a developer :p trust me you have it very easy
 
[TW]Fox;14148304 said:
Oh dear. Definite bitterness here even if you don't care to admit it. Clearly you can't see why the PM earns more money than you, so you rail against it. He is in charge, you write code, get over it.
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Bitter about what? I am trying to help them as best I can, but unfortuantely I left my crystal ball at home today :p
 
nero120 said:
Bitter about what?
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The fact he earns more than you and is presumably perceived to be more succesful than you even though you personally beleive his job is easy. This is pretty obvious as you've made references to him being overpaid, you've called him 'filth', etc etc.
 
nero120 said:
It is my opinion, but since it is the PMs responsibility to deliver the project, if his devs are not up to it he can flag it to the program manager, who will reassign/replace them. I think any PM who blames his devs for failing to do his job properly clearly is not worth spit.
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Agreed... however I don't think it is unreasonable to expect developers to work with a PM and provide useful estimates and time-scales.. In any large development team you would expect them to be working with some methodology for work-flow planning anyway.. any team that doesn't isnt worth their spit
 
ps3ud0 said:
Bit confused what the issue is - the PM is there to facilate your work (aswell as others) so its in your best interests to make it plain to them how long x/y/z will take.

Considering you have only started on the project I can understand you were only able to guess the time needed, but I dont understand the issue that the PM has now asked you to review and confirm that guess. Hes not asking for a deadline, just an estimation of when you will deliver...

Seriously sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder and having an issue thats not really there...

ps3ud0 :cool:
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It may sound that way, but onyl because I can't be assed to spell the situation out for everyone here, so I admit I'm bringing this blowback on myself. :)

Take my word for it, this guy is a snivelling weasle and I'm just venting because I feel like it. :)
 
Then why start the thread? I know you want some sympathy but you wont get it from here if you cant even be bothered to explain what the exact issue is...

You really are making a pit for yourself - where a 'personal issue' with a colleague is affecting a working relationship - it just doesnt happen when youre a professional...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
Pneumonic said:
Agreed... however I don't think it is unreasonable to expect developers to work with a PM and provide useful estimates and time-scales.. In any large development team you would expect them to be working with some methodology for work-flow planning anyway.. any team that doesn't isnt worth their spit
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I agree, but as I've said this task is a few days work, and I am new on the project. In your opinion, exactly what am I supposed to do to make that estimate more precise? Spend more time 'investigating' when I should just be getting this task done? This is a bad PM.
 
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