RAF recruitment, has it gone a bit too far...

I agree :)

As you're confused about my meaning I'll try just one more time, anymore just gets in the way of the thread but just to be very clear - none of what "you've" said is even close to what "I've" said.

To try again, Recruit A (irrespective of race, colour, sex, gender age etc) during recruit training will be trained in the same way as every other recruit and they will be expected to carry out an order in exactly the same way as every other recruit - that is not diversity, nor is individualism - it is the military way to ensure an output of consistently trained recruits (irrespective of race, colour, sex, gender age etc). Once those people join their units, the unit (RAF, Army, Navy, RM etc) then indocrinates that person into the specific ways that their specific unit operates and they learn what their role within that unit will be and they train to carry out that role in exactly the same way that thousands of other people have done before them - again that is not diversity, nor is individualism - once that person is trained and experienced they can move to other units and the process starts again with them learning the same things in the same way that thousands of others have done before - once more that is not diversity, nor is individualism. This holds true whether your a lowly Army Private, whether you are a Navy Commander or an RAF Air Vice Marshal, at every point the training you go through as you advance through your military career, the way you are expected to carry-out your role is the same way it's been done by so many before you - that is not diversity, nor is individualism.

The Air Vice-Marshal is suggesting that simply making the RAF "diverse" (i.e. recruiting more women and more ethnic minorities) will improve it's capabilities yet it can't and it won't, because we train that diversity out of people from the instant they join, because we want a repeatable output when the input is the same. For example, when an Army JNCO mechanic is told to fix a tank then irrespective of race, colour, sex, gender age etc they will fix the tank the same way following a set procedure or when an RAF Admin Officer writes a report they will do so following the set procedure for writting that type of report, or if a Navy Captain in charge of an Aircraft Carrier is told to sail from Portsmouth to Gibralter, they will follow the same procedure which tells that what they need such supplies, routes, timings, notices to be given etc - that is not diversity, nor is individualism - everyone is just following a set of pre-written procedures, so how will "diversity" help in any of these situations - it can't, because every single member of the military, irrespective of race, colour, sex, gender age etc, still has to follow procedures, no-one is allowed to just "do what they want" or to say "hey, I'm from the Bangladesh community, I'm going to do things my own way", thats not how they military works as you should understand.

However, for certain units or personnel there will be some leeway to change things. Someone, for example, has to write the procedures and these are open to change based on operational experience (Afghan and Iraq are great recent examples of rapid procedural changes due to combat) but those who get to write/change procedures are a very limited set of people within the military, and they require a great deal of evidence to be presented before any changes occur.

Now, none of this takes away the individuals ability to make small-level day to day decisions such as "where to eat lunch, should we run 3 miles or 5 miles, should I start working on a repair job now or have a tea-break first" etc but when orders are given, processes and procedures take precedence so, for example, a Junior Army Infantry Officer will have some leeway when given the order "I want you to capture that ridge" but that very limited leeway is down to "which side to I want to attack from, where does the enemy look strongest/weakest" etc and not "I know the procedure written for a Ridge Line attack says attack where the enemy is weakest using overwhelming firepower and manoeuvre skills backed up with heavy support from other units, but as I'm a woman I know a better way" because when they do something outside of procedure, everyone dies and the attack fails - thats a military fact, those procedures are written in blood for a reason.

So again "diversity" would have zero effect because irrespective of race, colour, sex, gender age etc people are trained to do the same job in the same way time after time after time, and people who deviate from procedure are very heavily frowned upon, even if their idea is fantastic. What happens then is the idea is sent up the chain of command (following the procedure written for "I have a better idea") and if it's agreed then the procedures are changed and the better idea is now the new procedure - and that only happens very, very rarely outside of direct combat.

Anyway, thats far longer than I wanted to type, I think if thats still coming across as myself sayiing "the military only take loners" or "BAME can't work in the military" to you then we'll just have to agree to disagree as we seem to talking at cross purposes.
I agree 100% with everything in your post. What I don't understand is why you singled out individualism when what you appear to have meant was positive disruption in the way that a lot of successful companies actively employ people to challenge the quid-pro-quo. I totally agree that such people would not be welcomed in the UK Armed Forces, irrespective of how amazing they were. As you correctly point out, they have a (hopefully successful) way of doing things and while they want people to think outside the box, the box is VERY well defined and they don't want people going too far away.

What I 100% do not want to get away from is my point that the UK Armed Forces as institutions are not racist or sexist and that BAME and people who don't identify as what would be described as CIS-Male get a fair shake of the stick at every opportunity. It's just a shame that they don't apply to discover that for themselves.
 
I’m saying it was a different time and there is a vast difference between people identifying each other by a ethnically localised nickname and institutional racism. Given that I knew a two-ring admiral whose nickname I couldn’t type on here it clearly didn’t affect his career.

I was one of two Scots in my intake and so I was Haggis and the other was Jock. No-one asked me if I liked it, it was how I was identified. There was no malice in it, it was part of the process. And there’s a chasm of difference between calling someone Blackie or Midnight and calling them a Black ******* or the N-word. Or shunning someone because of their ethnicity, gender or orientation. I actually saw far, far, greater tolerance in the RN and RNR than in general society at the time.
You're right it was a different time, but you're wrong that it is/was acceptable.

You might see it as team bonding/harmless banter, but racism should never have had a place in the military and certainly doesn't now.

I'm by no means woke and have a few years under my belt in the forces, but I honestly can't believe you're defending this.

Nurse! Nurse! He's escaped again! Back on your meds grandad.

Ex- Royal Navy - check. Old man - check. Always talking about his time in - check. Are you Uncle Albert?

uncle-albert.gif
 
Many here are mocking Russia's military prowess, but one thing's for sure, they won't be hamstringing their recruitment by looking for ethnic minorities, homosexuals and girls to keep the diversity tally up!

They literally are though, right now!

Russia is having a huge issue with recruitment into its military and they literally are trying to focus on recruiting minorities from the various Republics to the East, they're very concerned about getting high casualties among ethnic Russian people from Moscow and St Petersburg.

Rather different reasons for trying to recruit minorities but Russia is having issues with recruiting and is actively trying to sign up minorities.
 

My Dad (ex RAF) just sent me this link, it's quite sad to have to admit that this isn't surprising.

It sounds like the targets are the problem tbh.. they've been set up with targets that perhaps aren't feasible.
 
My Dad (ex RAF) just sent me this link, it's quite sad to have to admit that this isn't surprising.

I'm completely unsurprised anymore sadly. The Gov gave the military an unrealistic target to hit and those folks at the senior officer levels "had" to find away to make this impossible target happen, so they fudged things. It's all just far too understandable and at the same time an absolutely stupid thing to have done.

Oh, and seeing "stakeholder" repeated constantly by the "Corporatised" RAF shows me how far what I consider to be "The Rot" has gone in the upper levels of the RAF. Personally I would suggest a wholesale removal of around 66% of the bloated Air Rank officer corps we currently have would be a great start. We are currently at approximately 160 officers who hold an Air Rank (the equivalent to a General or Admiral who are all on a minimum pay of £113k) which I believe is more than we had during WW2 when the RAF was 350 times bigger - I mean one of these Officer's job is solely to promote RAF Sport FFS......for at least £113k a year! - and I would suggest a harsh refocusing from the remaining 33% onto the RAF's core mission set - delivering air power - and anything which doesn't directly do that needs to go.

However that'll never happen, the cows won't vote for the slaughterhouse and the Officer corps won't cut their bloated numbers down, there's far too much money and titles (OBE, MBE, CBE, Sir etc) to be made.
 
You're right it was a different time, but you're wrong that it is/was acceptable.

You might see it as team bonding/harmless banter, but racism should never have had a place in the military and certainly doesn't now.

I'm by no means woke and have a few years under my belt in the forces, but I honestly can't believe you're defending this.

Nurse! Nurse! He's escaped again! Back on your meds grandad.

Ex- Royal Navy - check. Old man - check. Always talking about his time in - check. Are you Uncle Albert?

uncle-albert.gif
Of course I’m Uncle Albert! Well done for working it out.

And I see we’ve got the warning phrase “im not racist woke”. Which means you very much are are. And you’re virtue signalling harder than the radio operator on the Titantic.
 
I think there are a lot worse characters / people in the world to be likened to than uncle Albert/buster merryfield ;)

I see what some are saying that racism by calling friends certain names via a bit of banter is different than actually thinking negatively or hating someone for their race.....

and we should not just think about race here either. at school I had a nickname podge due to me being tubby. some people I accepted it off, others I didn't like it and it was contextual.

it doesn't make it right however. I suppose the only person who can say if it is ok or not is the person in those shoes, and even then it is difficult as that person may feel pressured to say "oh it's ok it's all just friendly" when really they don't like it.

so ultimately it shouldn't happen.
it's a bit like the sexism in the work place thing. I have worked one way or another with some of the same people for ages and we are really close, some of the stuff we got up to and how we talked to each other HR would have kittens over. we would not dare do it now incase we were over heard, and it does make me a little sad and miss the old times..... but I have to admit it's probably for the best because some people have been really hurt by how they are treated at work.

it isn't for us to say what is friendly banter and what is hurtful or racist imo. and even if you are a minority and are fine with how you are treated it does not mean someone else in your shoes would be.
I like the think that I know in my heart I am not racist. the thought of me treating someone different just because of their skin tone is abhorant.... but ultimately it isn't whether I think things are racist or not it is about the people I am around.abd what they think.

I really struggle with addressing some women. I am a northerner and am also crap with names. where I am from it was perfectly acceptable and not patronising at all to call women luv. even now it happens all the time and equally women in shops call men it as well. it is how I address people naturally. but down south a lot of people feel that is really wrong. I have been here a while now and mostly out of the habit but sometimes forget.

imo it is much less friendly down where I live but it is what it is .
I will never agree with positive discrimination however.
 
Of course I’m Uncle Albert! Well done for working it out.

And I see we’ve got the warning phrase “im not racist woke”. Which means you very much are are. And you’re virtue signalling harder than the radio operator on the Titantic.
I even have my pronouns in my email sig block.
 
We're fed all this diversity message at work constantly, the arguement for it is having a diverse workforce allows people from different backgrounds to mix and compare ideas which leads to better outcomes. The elephant in the room though that nobody dares or wants to mention is diversity based around skin colour and gender makes almost difference to outcomes.

Genuine diversity is a powerful tool if implemented correctly. Hiring people with different educational backgrounds, interests, having a balance of people who are naturally analytical or creative etc will give better outcomes then just pairing a white straight male with an Asian women. But as a large multinational company we're awash with people who won't let that logic get in the way of achieving diversity by numbers.
 
I think there are a lot worse characters / people in the world to be likened to than uncle Albert/buster merryfield ;)

I see what some are saying that racism by calling friends certain names via a bit of banter is different than actually thinking negatively or hating someone for their race.....

and we should not just think about race here either. at school I had a nickname podge due to me being tubby. some people I accepted it off, others I didn't like it and it was contextual.

it doesn't make it right however. I suppose the only person who can say if it is ok or not is the person in those shoes, and even then it is difficult as that person may feel pressured to say "oh it's ok it's all just friendly" when really they don't like it.

so ultimately it shouldn't happen.
it's a bit like the sexism in the work place thing. I have worked one way or another with some of the same people for ages and we are really close, some of the stuff we got up to and how we talked to each other HR would have kittens over. we would not dare do it now incase we were over heard, and it does make me a little sad and miss the old times..... but I have to admit it's probably for the best because some people have been really hurt by how they are treated at work.

it isn't for us to say what is friendly banter and what is hurtful or racist imo. and even if you are a minority and are fine with how you are treated it does not mean someone else in your shoes would be.
I like the think that I know in my heart I am not racist. the thought of me treating someone different just because of their skin tone is abhorant.... but ultimately it isn't whether I think things are racist or not it is about the people I am around.abd what they think.

I really struggle with addressing some women. I am a northerner and am also crap with names. where I am from it was perfectly acceptable and not patronising at all to call women luv. even now it happens all the time and equally women in shops call men it as well. it is how I address people naturally. but down south a lot of people feel that is really wrong. I have been here a while now and mostly out of the habit but sometimes forget.

imo it is much less friendly down where I live but it is what it is .
I will never agree with positive discrimination however.
I agree. There is a massive difference between racism/sexism/bigotry and giving someone a nickname based on some personal characteristic. It’s what people do. It’s what people have always done. Except now a VERY small, VERY vocal, group has started telling us that how we live is wrong. And I not only have to accept everyone else, I have to change to fit with they/them because they/them don’t feel comfortable otherwise. Well, I don’t feel comfortable either. And apparently that’s OK.
 
Why on earth do these targets exist.

Same job, same standards. Shouldn’t matter who does it. I’d rather see someone do it because they want to do it rather than someone buffering the statistics.

It comes from ideas like Critical Race Theory which states all white people are born racist because they have an innate bias in their favour ergo there should be more ethnicity to rebalance the equation. From this comes Lenny Henry who was complaining there aren't enough black faces in the crowd at Glastonbury so expect a panic drive to admit more ethnic or more practically to withhold sales to white buyers... if they can identify them. It wouldn't be so bad if there was actually a sign on the gate saying "no blacks allowed" which of course there isn't, its insidiously implied instead. The fact it doesn't doesn't really exist doesn't matter its all about ideology rather than practical reality.
 
You just keep making fun of people with PTSD and I’m sure you’ll learn to be a human one day.

So you think inherit racism is banter and team building. I disagree and say it is wrong and has no place historically or currently in HM Forces and then you throw the PTSD card at me? Got it.

I am NOT making fun of you, i am disagreeing - 2 different things.

As for the actual PTSD, i am sorry to hear that, very sorry to hear that. But also before you cast aspersions, you don't know my personal situation, nor quite a few others on this board i imagine.

We are allowed to disagree and i thank you for your service. I'd happily share a pint with a member of our senior service, although if you'd tried harder at school, you may have been able to join my lot - the RAF ;)
 
So you think inherit racism is banter and team building. I disagree and say it is wrong and has no place historically or currently in HM Forces.

Same here and I know from the fairly constant stream of D&I briefs that the RAF get (I would bet the Army/RN gets the same) that even the things that WJA96 has said in the past, which they didn't consider to be bad at the time such as calling Scots "Jock" etc, is being cracked down on nowadays which causes other issues I've found.

As someone older who often has to brief large groups of engineers, I still find it hard not to automatically use the word "guys" (as in "OK listen in guys, here's whats happening next............") even if there is only men in the group because there is a risk of rebuke should you do it, even if no-one at the time seems to mind, because "gendered" language like that is being driven out.

This means in effect that people are often having to walk around on tippy-toes around the language they use just in-case a single minor slip (using Guys instead of Folks/People etc) is noticed, and I personally find that kind of constant "I must be on my guard just in case I slip-up" can be unnecessarily draining at times.
 
So you think inherit racism is banter and team building. I disagree and say it is wrong and has no place historically or currently in HM Forces and then you throw the PTSD card at me? Got it.

I am NOT making fun of you, i am disagreeing - 2 different things.

As for the actual PTSD, i am sorry to hear that, very sorry to hear that. But also before you cast aspersions, you don't know my personal situation, nor quite a few others on this board i imagine.

We are allowed to disagree and i thank you for your service. I'd happily share a pint with a member of our senior service, although if you'd tried harder at school, you may have been able to join my lot - the RAF ;)
I don't have PTSD, the character of Uncle Albert has undiagnosed PTSD hence the disturbed sleep and outbursts. It’s written to be funny but actually we’re laughing at someone who is mentally ill. If they tried to write that now it would be thrown straight out.

As for my service I missed anything remotely dangerous so I’m afraid I can’t claim anything more heroic than having saved a few yachtsmen who ran out of rum and thoroughly enjoying my time on a few floating gin palaces.

As for my education, as it happens I have the RN to thank for funding my first degree and launching my non-military career. And as One RM sergeant gleefully pointed out to me - qualifications don’t mean anything when the bullets start flying. Some of the greatest pilots in history could hardly write.

As for having a drink, I don’t think so. My mates are decidedly un-PC and I think you’d be very much out of place. And I wouldn’t want you to feel uncomfortable.
 
Same here and I know from the fairly constant stream of D&I briefs that the RAF get (I would bet the Army/RN gets the same) that even the things that WJA96 has said in the past, which they didn't consider to be bad at the time such as calling Scots "Jock" etc, is being cracked down on nowadays which causes other issues I've found.

As someone older who often has to brief large groups of engineers, I still find it hard not to automatically use the word "guys" (as in "OK listen in guys, here's whats happening next............") even if there is only men in the group because there is a risk of rebuke should you do it, even if no-one at the time seems to mind, because "gendered" language like that is being driven out.

This means in effect that people are often having to walk around on tippy-toes around the language they use just in-case a single minor slip (using Guys instead of Folks/People etc) is noticed, and I personally find that kind of constant "I must be on my guard just in case I slip-up" can be unnecessarily draining at times.
Unfortunately you’re just going to have to get used to it. Because nowadays if you’re suspected of being something unacceptable to someone on Twitter, they send the police to arrest you.
 
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