Raytracing - Would you buy in to it now?

willhub · 19 Feb 2021 at 13:01

Minecraft RTX isn't ray tracing only, it's just a toggle option in Minecraft.

Wrinkly · 19 Feb 2021 at 13:22

willhub said:
Minecraft RTX isn't ray tracing only, it's just a toggle option in Minecraft.

I think with Minecraft RTX, when turned on, you do get a path tracing engine which renders the full scene, no hybrid approach.

sparkymark75 · 19 Feb 2021 at 15:48

Wrinkly said:
Quake 2 RTX and Minecraft RTX. What other ray tracing only games are out there?

Those are just ray tracing versions of the same game.

Wrinkly · 19 Feb 2021 at 15:51

sparkymark75 said:
Those are just ray tracing versions of the same game.

They are, but the important aspect is that the ray tracing used is not a hybrid approach, they have their own fully path traced engine. E.g. It's not bolted on to provide shadows on top of a rasterised scene. Think of it as a new game using old maps if it's easier.

Pottsey · 19 Feb 2021 at 15:58

Wrinkly said:
Quake 2 RTX and Minecraft RTX. What other ray tracing only games are out there?

Stay in the Light is marked as comming soon.

Stay In the Light came out in 2019. You can still get it direct from the Stay In the Light website. Not sure why the UK Steam store changed to coming soon and has been like that for ages despite the fact its been out since 2019.

EDIT: Looks like Stay in the Light has now gone free for those that want to try a Ray Tracing only game built around Ray Tracing as part of the gameplay.

Stay in the Light – Ray Traced Horror (sunsidegames.com)

sparkymark75 · 19 Feb 2021 at 23:05

I wonder if Remedy (or some one else) will release a ray traced powered Alan Wake game? That game utilised light as a mechanic so would make sense.

Grim5 · 19 Feb 2021 at 23:40

sparkymark75 said:
I wonder if Remedy (or some one else) will release a ray traced powered Alan Wake game? That game utilised light as a mechanic so would make sense.

Oh god I hope remedy makes alan wake 2

remedy is one of the best developers in the last 10-12 years, their games are just fantastic

DaveGW · 20 Feb 2021 at 01:18

Pottsey said:
It is not speculation, it is fact that proves what you said is wrong. Metro Exodus Enhanced is an entirely new separate game that is coming out rebuilt on a new engine built around Ray Tracing and has a Ray Tracing as a minimum spec.

Same for the Stay in the Light both are examples that prove you are incorrect in saying RT will only be an afterthought. There is no way anyone can look at Metro Exodus Enhanced or Stay in the Ligh and say Ray Tracing is just an afterthought.

I can see you expect RT to be begin to pick up pace, and i hope it does, i have a shiny new 3090 just waiting for something worthwhile to do, possibly MSFS will get RT after DX12 is shoehorned in.But the head aof XBOX see's little future in RT, so we will see. 2080ti released in Sep2018.

Adokaum · 20 Feb 2021 at 01:26

I think it's a pretty cool feature on some of the more simplistic games like Minecraft or Quake to instantly update their look. On games that already look realistic, the only thing it's doing is making the devs jobs easier, not having to fake as many effects. Though right now I'd say it's only worth it on a higher end cards, getting a 3060 or something for rtx seems worthless unless you get enough performance with DLSS.

Phixsator · 20 Feb 2021 at 23:13

Wrinkly said:
It's not just Nvidia that is working on ray tracing. AMD, Apple, Intel, Microsoft, Sony, etc. are all investing in ray tracing. Performance wise, next gen tech has always had a hit on performance.

I have no problem admitting that I feel ray tracing naysayers should be thrown into the same basket beside the flat earthers

I'm well aware that Nvidia is not working on RT alone and I never expressed any negative thoughts or feeling against any company working on RT. What I said was that I would trade the RT capabilities of my poor 3070 for another 5-10% raster performance in a heartbeat. Perhaps that had something to do with the **** performance that card has in RT games and not that I hate RT in general?

Wrinkly said:
Say what you want, just as I do. That's what the forum is for.

As far as ray tracing goes, I'd agree with you that much of what we have seen so far has been poorly implemented. Some of this is due to Turing's performance, but in general it's been down to the tech being added in as an after thought. We have also had some good examples, while @Rroff has done a great job attempting to educate with the Quake 2 RTX engine.

Newsflash, Ampere's RT performance isn't that much better than Turing's. Overhead stays the same, roughly 40+% performance loss gen over gen. Can't say that's very impressive. You would think that after the first attempt at RT with Turing they had listened and actually made sure the RT capabilities would follow closer to the general raster performance offered by the cards.

PS: No, AMD's RT offering isn't impressive either.

Wrinkly · 20 Feb 2021 at 23:51

Phixsator said:
I'm well aware that Nvidia is not working on RT alone and I never expressed any negative thoughts or feeling against any company working on RT. What I said was that I would trade the RT capabilities of my poor 3070 for another 5-10% raster performance in a heartbeat. Perhaps that had something to do with the **** performance that card has in RT games and not that I hate RT in general?

That's why I'd like to have more RT cores on my 3080. Ideally full RT and use my old 1080Ti for rasterisation.

Phixsator said:
Newsflash, Ampere's RT performance isn't that much better than Turing's. Overhead stays the same, roughly 40+% performance loss gen over gen. Can't say that's very impressive. You would think that after the first attempt at RT with Turing they had listened and actually made sure the RT capabilities would follow closer to the general raster performance offered by the cards.

PS: No, AMD's RT offering isn't impressive either.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-amd-radeon-rx-6800-and-6800-xt-review?page=5

Code:

NO DLSS

Title(1440p) Card    Avg  Min  Max

Control      2080   34.9 27.3 38.6
             6800XT 37.7 29.2 46.9
             2080Ti 45.6 34.3 51.0
             3080   61.9 56.1 72.9

Metro Exodus 2080   46.8 28.2 53.4
             6800XT 55.8 36.1 69.6
             2080Ti 60.1 35.8 77.8
             3080   75.0 44.2 97.2

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-nvidia-geforce-rtx-3080-review?page=6

Code:

Title(1440p) Card    Avg  Min  Max

Quake 2 RTX  2080   33.6 22.9 40.9
             2080Ti 44.2 30.3 53.1
             3080   65.1 43.7 75.4

I'm impressed with Ampere's ray tracing. I feel it delivers on what Turing promised. Remember as well that Ampere is on 8nm, while RDNA2 is on 7nm.

I almost went for the 3090 for more RT cores. Price difference, gaming at 1440p and a feeling these cards will do badly against next gen made me settle on the 3080.

I think we will heve to wait on Metro Exodus Enhanced to see what RDNA2 can do.

heartburnron · 21 Feb 2021 at 00:10

Wrinkly said:
Metro Exodus 2080 46.8 28.2 53.4
6800XT 55.8 36.1 69.6
2080Ti 60.1 35.8 77.8
3080 75.0 44.2 97.2[/code]

Those must be RT on ultra? Granted I'm using a 6900 XT but with RT on high at 3440x1440 I'm getting an average of around 70 FPS.

SKILL · 21 Feb 2021 at 00:22

It's not that Amperes RT performance is bad per se, as much as it's no generational improvement... Basically Ampere is x% faster on raster performance over Turing and x% faster on RT. If nvidia had actually made any strides in improving the hardware, rather than just putting more in, in would be x+y% faster, if that makes sense...

As a general rule, and without seeing it in person (as I've got a 1070 and can't buy anything newer for reasonable money these days

) I'm not exactly sold on RT for a few reasons, as already mentioned in this thread:

The performance hit is huge
The IQ improvement, again from screenshots, seems limited over a 'good' non-RT game
DLSS may give some framerate back but clearly at a cost to IQ which seems a bizarre choice to justify - "I'll drop IQ by upsampling so I can increase IQ with RT"

The cynical in me can't help but think that the reason that the flagship games (e.g. Cyberpunk 2077) with RT run just *so* badly, hence 'requiring' DLSS, and the non-RT reflections are just *so* bad, far worse than other games with no RT at all, is exactly what nvidia wants to sell their cards...

EDIT:

I think long term RT is great, but until RT actually shows the IQ it *can* and runs at a reasonable performance without reducing IQ via upscaling it's not a selling point...

I'm more tempted by the 6800XT than the 3080...

sparkymark75 · 21 Feb 2021 at 00:54

Wrinkly said:
That's why I'd like to have more RT cores on my 3080. Ideally full RT and use my old 1080Ti for rasterisation.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-amd-radeon-rx-6800-and-6800-xt-review?page=5

Code:

NO DLSS Title(1440p) Card Avg Min Max Control 2080 34.9 27.3 38.6 6800XT 37.7 29.2 46.9 2080Ti 45.6 34.3 51.0 3080 61.9 56.1 72.9 Metro Exodus 2080 46.8 28.2 53.4 6800XT 55.8 36.1 69.6 2080Ti 60.1 35.8 77.8 3080 75.0 44.2 97.2

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-nvidia-geforce-rtx-3080-review?page=6

Code:

Title(1440p) Card Avg Min Max Quake 2 RTX 2080 33.6 22.9 40.9 2080Ti 44.2 30.3 53.1 3080 65.1 43.7 75.4

I'm impressed with Ampere's ray tracing. I feel it delivers on what Turing promised. Remember as well that Ampere is on 8nm, while RDNA2 is on 7nm.

I almost went for the 3090 for more RT cores. Price difference, gaming at 1440p and a feeling these cards will do badly against next gen made me settle on the 3080.

I think we will heve to wait on Metro Exodus Enhanced to see what RDNA2 can do.

So AMDs first crack at ray tracing is better than nVidia's first crack at ray tracing?

Wrinkly · 21 Feb 2021 at 01:53

sparkymark75 said:
So AMDs first crack at ray tracing is better than nVidia's first crack at ray tracing?

Which once again keeps AMD a generation behind

Wrinkly · 21 Feb 2021 at 02:15

SKILL said:
It's not that Amperes RT performance is bad per se, as much as it's no generational improvement... Basically Ampere is x% faster on raster performance over Turing and x% faster on RT. If nvidia had actually made any strides in improving the hardware, rather than just putting more in, in would be x+y% faster, if that makes sense...

As a general rule, and without seeing it in person (as I've got a 1070 and can't buy anything newer for reasonable money these days ) I'm not exactly sold on RT for a few reasons, as already mentioned in this thread:

The performance hit is huge

The IQ improvement, again from screenshots, seems limited over a 'good' non-RT game

DLSS may give some framerate back but clearly at a cost to IQ which seems a bizarre choice to justify - "I'll drop IQ by upsampling so I can increase IQ with RT"

The cynical in me can't help but think that the reason that the flagship games (e.g. Cyberpunk 2077) with RT run just *so* badly, hence 'requiring' DLSS, and the non-RT reflections are just *so* bad, far worse than other games with no RT at all, is exactly what nvidia wants to sell their cards...

EDIT:

I think long term RT is great, but until RT actually shows the IQ it *can* and runs at a reasonable performance without reducing IQ via upscaling it's not a selling point...

I'm more tempted by the 6800XT than the 3080...

CP2077 is a hybrid game, hence could be a lot better, though I thought the external lighting (psycho setting) was excellent. We will need to see what happens with Metro Exodus Enhanced.

Ampere does indeed contain improvements to the RT cores - https://www.nvidia.com/content/dam/...pere-GA102-GPU-Architecture-Whitepaper-V1.pdf

Second-Generation RT Core

The new RT Core includes a number of enhancements, combined with improvements to caching subsystems, that effectively deliver up to 2x performance improvement over the RT Core in Turing GPUs. In addition, the GA10x SM allows RT Core and graphics, or RT Core and compute workloads to run concurrently, significantly accelerating many ray tracing operations.

GA10x GPUs feature NVIDIA’s second-generation ray tracing technology, which builds on the learnings from Turing. Like Turing, the second-generation RT Core in GA10x includes dedicated hardware units for BVH traversal and ray-triangle intersection testing. Once the SM has cast the ray, the RT Core will perform all of the calculations needed for BVH traversal and triangle intersection tests, and will return a hit or no hit to the SM. Ampere architecture RT Cores double the ray/triangle intersection testing rate over Turing architecture RT Cores.

IMO RT is best experienced first hand. Screen shots or videos just don't do it justice. To some extent much like VR doesn't work in screen shots.
Performance wise, I'm happy with 1440p/60Hz. I don't play PVP games and to be honest, I see the rush for high FPS in such PVP games to be nothing more than pay to win. They were more fun when we all had 56k dial up.
DLSS 2.0 is working very well, many people can't tell now if DLSS is on or off. At 1440p I play with DLSS Quality (1080p source) when I have the option, which looks great.

I don't know why you'd be more tempted by a 6800XT than a 3080. You get more VRAM with the 6800XT, but less RT and no DLSS. Both trade blows in legacy games and both GPUs are not going to do well against next gen. Maybe if the 6800XT was 75% the cost of the 3080 I could see the sense.

Rroff · 21 Feb 2021 at 02:22

Gonna be interesting to compare Metro Exodus - any kind of RT in CP within the same build that supports non-RT is going to be massively complicated in terms of getting the best out of RT - the implementation is basically used to try and polish up where traditional techniques fall down rather than for the strengths of RT and is lacking in many respects

even the reflections just use a simplified version of the game world at reduced detail/resolution.

Wrinkly · 21 Feb 2021 at 02:25

heartburnron said:
Those must be RT on ultra? Granted I'm using a 6900 XT but with RT on high at 3440x1440 I'm getting an average of around 70 FPS.

They use a particularily intensive part of the game, RT at high -

heartburnron · 21 Feb 2021 at 03:56

Wrinkly said:
They use a particularily intensive part of the game, RT at high -

I was talking about Metro Exodus but yeah ok, there were select parts in that game where I dipped into the 50s.

SKILL · 21 Feb 2021 at 09:31

Wrinkly said:
CP2077 is a hybrid game, hence could be a lot better, though I thought the external lighting (psycho setting) was excellent. We will need to see what happens with Metro Exodus Enhanced.

Ampere does indeed contain improvements to the RT cores - https://www.nvidia.com/content/dam/...pere-GA102-GPU-Architecture-Whitepaper-V1.pdf

IMO RT is best experienced first hand. Screen shots or videos just don't do it justice. To some extent much like VR doesn't work in screen shots.

Performance wise, I'm happy with 1440p/60Hz. I don't play PVP games and to be honest, I see the rush for high FPS in such PVP games to be nothing more than pay to win. They were more fun when we all had 56k dial up.

DLSS 2.0 is working very well, many people can't tell now if DLSS is on or off. At 1440p I play with DLSS Quality (1080p source) when I have the option, which looks great.

I don't know why you'd be more tempted by a 6800XT than a 3080. You get more VRAM with the 6800XT, but less RT and no DLSS. Both trade blows in legacy games and both GPUs are not going to do well against next gen. Maybe if the 6800XT was 75% the cost of the 3080 I could see the sense.

It's not just CP2077, although that's an extreme example, but other RT games show mediocre non-RT reflections, it makes the screenshots look better for RT but it seems a flawed comparison.

Well, if nvidia says so it must be true

the benchmarks don't show any generational improvement beyond just 'moar cores'.

I've got 1440p/165Hz screen, but not too fussed about it, I want 60fps min, not average, though ideally. You pick DLSS by preference? again only speaking through review videos and screenshots but it seems clearly noticeable even in video at 4k 'Quality' (1440p I believe?) so picking it as a preference seems weird?

As for 6800XT vs 3080, as a general rule, at 1440p, the 6800XT seems to have the edge. As mentioned I'm not sold on RT, and certainly not with the performance hit seen currently, and I don't want to use the 'crutch' of DLSS after spending a considerable chunk of money on a GPU. The 6800XT (by MSRP) is cheaper than the 3080, not that either MSRP really matters right now...