Red Bull to quit F1?

dannyjo22 · 17 Mar 2015 at 20:17

Breach of regulations or the usual 'against the spirit of the rules'. If they didn't run them in competition, so what. That's the whole point of a technical delegate, you push the limits and they tell you to reign it in or not. I can't believe the that people think the only car doing this was red bull. They concentrate all the time on car when it's miles ahead of the rest. Like they did with mclaren and ferrari before them.

Mclaren should perhaps try it again, after becoming far to conservative after being caught in one stop using the photocopier. Instead they are worried about colour matching castors and ron worrying about a colour miss match due to having a floor tile broken. (Here's a tip for you Ron, buy plenty of spares next time you have the floor laid from the same batch you noob)

JUMPURS · 17 Mar 2015 at 20:27

Flibster said:
Being told to change them by the FIA technical delegate for be in breach of the regulations?

If they were run in a Quali or race, then the other teams could have protested and got a disqualification, but they were told to change them during scruiteering or post free practice.

So in other words, red bull didn't cheer, because if they had cheated, then other teams would have protested?

I don't like red bull, but their cars passed all the tests, even when they changed the tests to try catch them in the act. Red bull didn't get disqualified from a race until last year.

Which is more than can be said for other teams and drivers.

Skeeter · 17 Mar 2015 at 21:03

Exactly.

Free practice isn't a competitive session, you can run pretty much what you like (anyone remember those massive vertical wings on the nose of the BMW Sauber in Canada, or the Arrows and Jordans with high wings in front of the driver at Monaco?).

To have cheated RBR will have had to run an illegal part during the competitive sessions, and during their 4 WCC years, they never did. So the accusation that they "cheated their way to 4 titles" is just nonsense.

JUMPURS · 17 Mar 2015 at 21:17

It's like the mythical red bull 'ran away with four championships' when 2 were very close.

Doggie2k · 17 Mar 2015 at 21:30

Well Ferarri were saying the same thing last year even hinted at joining the WEC

Rammix · 17 Mar 2015 at 21:32

Hasn't the race for an unfair advantage always been part of F1?

Hell, Gordon Murray one of the best car designers of his generation once attached an 18" fan to the back of one of his cars. Because, well, the regulations didn't say he couldn't and it gave them a massive increase in downforce.

JeditOjanen · 18 Mar 2015 at 13:08

Steampunk said:
It's extra clever if you find a way of passing the tests but still breaking the rules.

Red Bull remind me of Olympic coach Tom McNab's story about a hammer thrower at the Highland Games who brought his own hammer with a shaft made of vines. The marshals measured it, found it was regulation length, and so they let him use it. Of course he breaks the Games record by a mile, at which point they call him over and say "Look, that hammer of yours may be of regulation length now, but when you swing it the vines stretch and it's a lot longer." Rory McBull replies, "Then I suggest you measure it while I'm swinging it".

Skeeter · 18 Mar 2015 at 13:18

So what's your point?

JUMPURS said:
It's like the mythical red bull 'ran away with four championships' when 2 were very close.

Yeah that bugs me. Vettel only lead the 2010 WDC once... after the final race.

timmeh · 18 Mar 2015 at 14:11

Didn't Red Bull qualify on the front row a few times with parts which then had to be removed for the race?

Skeeter · 18 Mar 2015 at 14:45

No? If they qualified with illegal parts they would have been disqualified and would have started from the pitlane.

deuse · 18 Mar 2015 at 15:26

Other than the fixable which was none flexible(so horner said) ws that rb changed the front suspension in f1 parc ferme.

The FIA caught them doing it but Horner as normal denied it. Under rule Article 34.5 you're supposed to use a tool. But rd used their hands.

Then rb broke article 5.5.3 of the 2012 Formula 1 technical regulations for using illegal engine maps in Germany.

timmeh · 18 Mar 2015 at 15:56

Skeeter said:
No? If they qualified with illegal parts they would have been disqualified and would have started from the pitlane.

It happens all the time where the teams challenge another team's (usually Red Bull) interpretation of the rules and, if the FIA agree they have to change the parts either between sessions or before the next race. Running 'illegal' parts isn't completely black and white and Red Bull used that to their advantage on numerous occasions, here's one I found after a quick Google.

Skeeter · 18 Mar 2015 at 16:00

deuse said:
Other than the fixable which was none flexible(so horner said) ws that rb changed the front suspension in f1 parc ferme.

The FIA caught them doing it but Horner as normal denied it. Under rule Article 34.5 you're supposed to use a tool. But rd used their hands.

The FIA did not catch them doing anything. At the 2012 Canadian Grand Prix the stewards found that under visual inspection it appeared that the front ride height could be changed by hand and not by a tool as the rules require. They requested RBR change the parts, they did. There was no evidence of cheating and no penalties.

Then rb broke article 5.5.3 of the 2012 Formula 1 technical regulations for using illegal engine maps in Germany.

RBR were referred to the stewards by the FIA as they felt their engine maps were illegal. However the stewards decalred them legal to the letter of the rule and RBR were not found to have cheated and were not penalized. What it did do was highlight a hole in the rules that the FIA have since closed.

timmeh · 18 Mar 2015 at 16:02

Skeeter said:
To have cheated RBR will have had to run an illegal part during the competitive sessions, and during their 4 WCC years, they never did. So the accusation that they "cheated their way to 4 titles" is just nonsense.

Also, Red Bull did cheat in competitive sessions. That article above and this, granted they were caught and penalised but that's irrelevant.

Skeeter · 18 Mar 2015 at 16:04

timmeh said:
It happens all the time where the teams challenge another team's (usually Red Bull) interpretation of the rules and, if the FIA agree they have to change the parts either between sessions or before the next race. Running 'illegal' parts isn't completely black and white and Red Bull used that to their advantage on numerous occasions, here's one I found after a quick Google.

As most people did at the time your confusing rule clarifications and technical directives with things being illegal.

On your floor example, they were protested but found legal, then the FIA changed the rules using the technical directive to make them illegal from the next race onwards, at which point they were removed.

Plus if they cheated they would have been disqualified, but they weren't.

The parts were legal when they were used. If they were made illegal later on that doesn't nullify the historical results. If thats how F1 worked then all results prior to 2014 would be nulled as they didn't use a 1.6 V6.

Skeeter · 18 Mar 2015 at 16:07

timmeh said:
Also, Red Bull did cheat in competitive sessions. That article above and this, granted they were caught and penalised but that's irrelevant.

I've never disputed that they cheated last year, but that wasn't one of their championship winning years.

It's quite ironic that the year they cheat is the one they didn't win!

413x · 18 Mar 2015 at 18:34

Red bull were creative. That I can't fault them for.
If they had flat out cheated they would have been disqualified surely?

One thing I hated was lack of racing. If webber was genuinely poo that's one thing. But I really have appreciation that Mercedes don't do it to that degree

I'd rather have a 1 minute lead pair to rest and wheel to wheel racing than
10 second lead with team orders

On flip side it's hard to blame teams for running team orders with engine restrictions

JUMPURS · 18 Mar 2015 at 18:51

Rammix said:
Hasn't the race for an unfair advantage always been part of F1?

Hell, Gordon Murray one of the best car designers of his generation once attached an 18" fan to the back of one of his cars. Because, well, the regulations didn't say he couldn't and it gave them a massive increase in downforce.

The thing with that and most of red bulls things is they were there to be seen and any other team could copy them if they wanted and could have them in place as soon as they could develop it.

The issue with the engine regs is it is so restricted they can't just do a straight copy. They are also limited to only 4 engines, so the changes need to fit in with that too if they are major.

Skeeter · 18 Mar 2015 at 19:03

You have to remember that being able to update the engine during the season is a glitch in the rules for this season only. The engines should be fixed.