Riders Eye View

[Treefrog]

This doesnt happen very often but ill put it in just to show another place where a car would be safter.

Your driving along in a car, you start to smell smoke then all of a sudden you get flames coming out of the grill and the engine bay had a fire in it. You have a small amout of time to pull of get out and run with out being burnt.

On a bike your driving along and you dont smell the smoke, then all of sudden your legs and testicles are being BBQed and you have to get off but you still have to slow down first while your getting cooked. This will most likely result in a crash.

It doesnt happen very often but it can always happen at least once

Hehe, same hypothetical scenario but you're trapped in the car for whatever reason (dodgy seatbelt, door won't open, etc) when it catches fire. Now which is better?
Answer: Depends on the circumstances.

 

[Malachy]

i will have you know i am very safe in my proffession thanks, and its more the way he uses political jargen similar to you, hence a bike is not dangerous its the wall you hit when you crash that is etc etc.
well if you hit said wall in a car you are far safer and far more likely to survive.
i am going to poland tomorrow to visit my girlfriends parents, now i am flying by easyjet out of luton airport reasonably safe means of transport, now i could stick two bits of wood together (stick them together incredibly well so they will not come apart or destroy in bad seas) and try and paddle across the english channel ofc that would not be dangerous because its the sea that is dangerous in your terminoligy..............
but the outcome is, i would fall off the planks of wood that are very safe and end up drowning due to the dangerous sea.
however if i went in a rubber dingy with a small outboard motor this is again maybe less dangerous but still quite a large risk and would be quite dangerous to my health with the chance of me drowning quite high.
I could also go by the safest water means by jumping on P&O's finest and arrive perfectly safely. there is a risk if the boat had trouble and sank but this is minimilistic.

As you say its the situation that makes the equipment dangerous, as i said in one of my first posts the UK highway imo is not a place for motorcycles, there are far to many hazards and you do not have the protection of a car incase such an accident happens so therefore i conclude that bikes on the uk road are more dangerous than a car for the user. KKTHNX BBQ

 

[Zip]

Another thing that makes bikes more dangerous then cars.

In a car driving along at 70mph, you get a blow out. you swerve around abit and maybe hit into something but you still have a chance of catching it.

On a bike going 70mph, you get a blow out, bike losses all traction no chance of gaining any control back and you crash and wake up in hospital if you wake up at all.

 

[Malachy]

/sarcasm thats not bikes beinmg dangerous thats inproper tyre maintenance ofc.and ofc the car drivers fault or tyre manufacturers/something else like that.
this is with the whole biking culture and why i stopped reading MCN (when i used to ride bikes) they are all too happy to whinge and whine all the time about car drivers and how every car driver causes accidents and cripples them for life calling car drivers stupid etc etc.......... well they know these facts yet still take that risk and ride on the road while whinging about it......... i know who is stupid in my eyes

 

[Treefrog]

i am going to poland tomorrow to visit my girlfriends parents, now i am flying by easyjet out of luton airport reasonably safe means of transport, now i could stick two bits of wood together (stick them together incredibly well so they will not come apart or destroy in bad seas) and try and paddle across the english channel ofc that would not be dangerous because its the sea that is dangerous in your terminology..............
but the outcome is, i would fall off the planks of wood that are very safe and end up drowning due to the dangerous sea.

No, your own stupidity would kill you in that situation because you haven't got a clue how to do it safely.

however if i went in a rubber dingy with a small outboard motor this is again maybe less dangerous but still quite a large risk and would be quite dangerous to my health with the chance of me drowning quite high.

Yes, you could go out in unsuitable conditions, damage the boat through carelessness, or get run down by a freighter because you weren't paying attention and drown because you didn't wear protective gear. Whose fault would that be - the sea or the idiot that didn't think about what he was doing and didn't take basic safety precautions - like thinking?

I could also go by the safest water means by jumping on P&O's finest and arrive perfectly safely. there is a risk if the boat had trouble and sank but this is minimilistic.

As you say its the situation that makes the equipment dangerous, as i said in one of my first posts the UK highway imo is not a place for motorcycles, there are far too many hazards and you do not have the protection of a car in case such an accident happens so therefore i conclude that bikes on the uk road are more dangerous than a car for the user. KKTHNX BBQ

The hazards will still be there no matter what your mode of transport. If you continue to rely on your airbags and safety cage and not on your ability to think, one day something will happen that will bypass these safety features and hurt you. Or someone else. And it will be something that, if you'd thought about it, you would've avoided. I hope that the result is just a scare and not an injury.

 

[Treefrog]

Another thing that makes bikes more dangerous then cars.

In a car driving along at 70mph, you get a blow out. you swerve around abit and maybe hit into something but you still have a chance of catching it.

On a bike going 70mph, you get a blow out, bike losses all traction no chance of gaining any control back and you crash and wake up in hospital if you wake up at all.

Rear wheel blowout at ~65mph, Bosley crossroads between Leek and Macclesfield, summer '89. Bike fishtailed 5 times before it got too bad to control, speed now ~30mph. I reached behind me, grabbed my pillion as I pushed myself off the bike, swung her across my front as I slid down the road on my left shoulder and leg. She had a tiny graze to the outside of her left little toe where her shoe had worn through, I had gone through the top layer of my leathers and ripped a buckle off my boot. Those were the extent of our injuries.
Not luck, but forethought, planning and knowing what to do. I find it a good mental exercise to think out "What would I do if ..." It's the same reason for skidding the car round a supermarket carpark at 0300 when there's a thin layer of snow on the ground - I'll have a better idea of what to do if I have to control a skid for real. Much better to practise on a deserted car park than in heavy traffic. Fun, too

 

[Enfield]

I think we mean to say riding a bike is more dangerous than driving a car. Well, that's certainly what I mean.

Bit of an odd thing to read when you first wake up eh Zip? BBQ testicles! LOL

 

[Dr Who]

Sorry, but you're talking out of your back-side.

So at anything above 25mph you don't need a helmet, what the...? What if you come off the bike and your head scrapes along the ground for 50 yards. Still don't need a helment? Yeah right.

Agreed, My brother has had some 100mph racing crashes and his head still works...

If you call getting on the bike again head still working

The helmets were destroyed ach time, and his worse injury was a concussion.. they stop the initial smashing of the skull, which is what they are for...

The rule of thumb on a car pulling out is to aim for going around the front as the car will spot you and brake, giving you a chance...

In this case the left would have been better, but survival instincts are hard to break... and she almost made it, had the other car given her room or not stopped where it did...

Its a lottery in that situation and she did okay due to correct protective gear...

 

[Dr Who]

Hah, not to mention the bird with the blue skirt on with nice legs

The girl that crashed is pretty cute as well..

 

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Another thing that makes bikes more dangerous then cars.

In a car driving along at 70mph, you get a blow out. you swerve around abit and maybe hit into something but you still have a chance of catching it.

On a bike going 70mph, you get a blow out, bike losses all traction no chance of gaining any control back and you crash and wake up in hospital if you wake up at all.

Sorry, but I disagree, I've had a Flat on my bike (didnt blow out but deflated within a couple of seconds) at well above national speed limits (exageration honestly m'lud!!!) and brought it to a standstill.
Unfortunately an aquaintance of mine cannot tell you what happened when his car tyre blew but sadly he died after the car spun and went into a roll.

And no, I'm not saying this is the norm, but every incident is different.

you almost sound like my safety officer from

Sounds like a smart guy, just because he uses the jargon doesnt make him wrong.


Fog

 

[Treefrog]

In this case the left would have been better, but survival instincts are hard to break... and she almost made it, had the other car given her room or not stopped where it did...

It's a lottery in that situation and she did okay due to correct protective gear...

The thread about her crash

I've thought about this a lot and consulted a lot of other people about this and we've all come to the same conclusion - what I did was the safest and most feasible option. Now, the people I've consulted are AMA racers, expert WSMC racers, and other very experienced riders/racers - all with WAAAY more experience and skill than I. ...and they're not saying that to be nice to me - believe me, these people helped train me and they'll tell me if I was a retard to my face without hesitation.

One thing I WILL maintain no matter what anyone says is that I would still have gone right - not braking, not going left.

The biggest arguments for not going left is because
1. it would have been the longest route to safety since I was in the #1 lane and the Honda was in the HOV lane.
2. all he had to do to stop locking his wheels is just let off the brake - how difficult is that?
3. if he was swerving to actually avoid something - do you really want to go towards whatever it was he was swerving to avoid?
4. if you're full blown set on going to the left, you better JAM on it to make it...and if he had completed his 180 sooner and hit you - you would most likely go flying in the direction your bike was heading. In other words...your body would be carried, through momentum, to the other side of the freeway. Now, I'm pretty tough - but there's no way my body would survive getting hit by oncoming traffic at full freeway speeds like that.
5. It's truely not likely to even work - he's swerving and rotating to the right - if you swerve to the left...chances are very likely for a head on collision.
6. There are even less outs to the left than to the right. Going to the left, you have one lane (HOV), a tiny shoulder, a cement wall, and the other side of the freeway. To the right, you have several lanes and exits off the freeway - there are just more options. In THIS case, a car on the right blocked that off for me...but the theory still applies.
7. HOV was the fastest moving lane, to the right are the slower to slowest moving lanes...which do you think is better to go towards?

...I just feel there were a lot more reasons to not go left than to go right...you make your own choice.

 

[Dr Who]

The thread about her crash

Yes I read it, and I still hold by my comment...

Plain and simple fact is, that she would have missed the car... but all those things considered, she would have had to have been very brave to go for it.. but that often applies to things...

She did the right thing all things being considered...

I said she would have been better off going left, but I agree with her she was right not to try...

But hey, unlike her I've never been hit by a car on a bike, so in that situation, who knows what I would do...



She talks about racers giving her advice, most of whom dont ride on the road, they have a good idea about the control of a bike, but hazard avoidance on the road is not their strong suit...

I have hung around bike racers for enough years now to know that part quite well...

 

[L Plate]

Sorry mate, if you are talking about accident avoidance you need to be quite clear about just how you define that

Bike racers have some of the quickest reflexes in sport, if its diving out of the way of another vehicle coming head on at a split seconds notice then i would agree that there is little that anyone could do about it, but dont take anything away from a bike racer because they all ride in the same direction, its simply wrong, and as far as bike racers go, how do you define a TT racer then???

Having looked at that video (bearing in mind that you only get a small view due to what the camera can see, who is to know that there isnt something coming up the left hand side of her that she has already passed, and by moving left "reactively" she then has to worry about not going over a car but under another

I certainly dont know how anyone could say that she could have avoided it by going left anyway, total farce the distance she has and the speed that the 2 vehicles were coming together wouldnt have given her enough space to swing round it without literally having to put knee and calf to floor from one side to the other, its an R1 not a moped

 

[NathanE]

The girl that crashed is pretty cute as well..

And she will remain cute. Because she was wearing leathers.

 

[Dr Who]

Sorry mate, if you are talking about accident avoidance you need to be quite clear about just how you define that

Bike racers have some of the quickest reflexes in sport, if its diving out of the way of another vehicle coming head on at a split seconds notice then i would agree that there is little that anyone could do about it, but dont take anything away from a bike racer because they all ride in the same direction, its simply wrong, and as far as bike racers go, how do you define a TT racer then???

Having looked at that video (bearing in mind that you only get a small view due to what the camera can see, who is to know that there isnt something coming up the left hand side of her that she has already passed, and by moving left "reactively" she then has to worry about not going over a car but under another

I certainly dont know how anyone could say that she could have avoided it by going left anyway, total farce the distance she has and the speed that the 2 vehicles were coming together wouldnt have given her enough space to swing round it without literally having to put knee and calf to floor from one side to the other, its an R1 not a moped

As I have been a bike race technician for many years, and my brother is a top racer in powerbikes, I take nothing away from them in reflexes.. but if you see these guys ride on the road, they have very little awareness of hazards and the safest way to avoid them...

Take a lesson from a police instructor, you will see the difference in how hazards are perceived and avoided I did...

I am not trying to say she should have gone left, I am saying that had she, she, when she started to turn towards the front gap, she would have made it... afterwards it was too late... and to make that call in those circumstances was nigh on impossible... only with hindsight... The car was completely accross her lane when it came to rest, almost facing the wrong way, that would have given her more time to pass the vehicle... however, she would only have managed that had she come off the brakes... and again, to do that is pretty scary in that situation...

And actually you can turn an R1 pretty fast, if you know what you are doing...

 

[Dr Who]

And she will remain cute. Because she was wearing leathers.

Yup, thats why I have quit riding bikes in Cyprus, too hot for leathers and to dangerous without...

 

[L Plate]

Dr Who, to be honest its going to get into one of them "i know because i know someone that does know" scenario's and at my age i am not even going to go down that route.

Police instructors, been taught by them when i was doing my CP course, its not the be all and end all

I can appreciate that you are a race bike technician, however there is sod all you can do to mechanically improve her riding and could have should have would have doesnt come into it, the brain instinctively looks for the easy way out, personnally if that would have been me, i might have even tried to knock down a cog and really let rip through the gap, because 2 seconds before the impact i dont think i would have gotten an R1 round that (in fact i know i couldnt).

As for the Race riding, again you sell them short, i know plenty of people who ride on the tracks thoughout the year, certainly more than they do on the road and they are fine with anything you stick in front of them, it was a generalisation that you know was only true of the "people" you personnally know


Dont get me wrong its not a knock back at you, its just that i see the whole thing from a totally different perspective and the one thing that was never factored into this is her skill as a rider, it clearly showed by the front of the bike that she committed herself to a handful of brake and what seemed to be the easier option of going right (i am assuming that she may have thought that the car to her immediate right would have passed through by the time she tried to avoid the bonnet, who knows??).

 

[Dr Who]

L Plate

You are not even reading what I am saying...

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to read what I have put, and realise I am agreeing with her course of action... she took what seemed to be the right route... You could only see that left was a better option with MASSIVE HINDSIGHT after the fact... and every survival instinct and correct course of action you learn on the road steered her in that direction...

I don't sell any race riders short, I have been riding bikes for 27 years, and invloved with racing, both motocross and road for most of those 27..

Perhaps I am speaking from experience, and the fact that a massive percentage of race riders DONT ride on the road as they think its more dangerous....

That tells me a lot about their mentality knowing how many of them have pins in most of the bones in their body... and believe me, if they aint crashing, they arent trying...

Its not about knowing more because I know someone that does, its about being someone that does...

My father was a police class one car and bike instructor, and I lay a lot of credit to him and his colleagues that I have never been hit by a car except at 17 on a moped... before they gave me lessons...

She has been knocked off twice... and she is a racer...

Nuff said..