Caporegime
I'm well aware of what he's been arrested on thanks and I'm pretty sure the jury are going to have to watch the video
RIP Adam Johnson / Ice Hockey player
- Thread starter Maundie
- Start date
I'm well aware of what he's been arrested on thanks and I'm pretty sure the jury are going to have to watch the video
Then you'll know the video looks like he deliberately raised his leg.I'm well aware of what he's been arrested on thanks and I'm pretty sure the jury are going to have to watch the video
Caporegime
What something looks like and convincing 12 members of a jury to convict someone on manslaughter are very different things.
I’m surprised you think it’ll be as simple as showing them the video.
I don't think it's that simple, but I don't think it will be as hard to return a guilty verdict as you think. The police will have been guided by experts here and those same experts will be telling that story to the Jury.
Will be interesting to see if the CPS think it's worth pursuing.
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Caporegime
I think it will as there’s no real precedent. We’ve also seen with other cases where something looks deliberate from the evidence where a jury has failed to deliver a guilty verdict.
Stolen from elsewhere but sums up my thoughts:
“Could Petgrave be Charged?
While there is a legal basis to charge Petgrave, the prospects of criminal charges materializing are on the low side. The reasons are two-fold.
The first is legal context and precedent. This case represents a departure from the typical types of incidents captured by involuntary manslaughter. Examples of involuntary manslaughter include accidentally discharging a firearm, improperly prescribing medication, texting and driving, driving while drunk, assisting a minor to consume the alcohol and failing to control a dog that has a history of attacking people.
As well, there is a general reluctance to criminally charge for incidents that occur on the playing field. Criminal charges are rare in the context of games unless a player clearly intended to attack another player. Here, Petgrave was negligent but did not intend to inflict harm.
The second reason relates to the prospects of success at trial. Prosecutors will only charge Petgrave if they believe there is a reasonable chance of securing a conviction. Here, it will be tough to succeed at trial given the unique nature of the incident.”
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I'd like to see a slow mo video from another angle of how high his leg got before the contact that put him off balance. It looks damning to me in real time even with the knock. I think he could very well be charged.
EDIT: Re-watched it many times and I don't think he's even off balance as the standing foot is still planted and on the ice. I think he is still in control and not falling over, so I don't think you can say this causes the leg to raise much at all. He makes a deliberate move towards Johnson and raises the leg in almost full control of that action imo.
EDIT: Re-watched it many times and I don't think he's even off balance as the standing foot is still planted and on the ice. I think he is still in control and not falling over, so I don't think you can say this causes the leg to raise much at all. He makes a deliberate move towards Johnson and raises the leg in almost full control of that action imo.
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Thing is, they only have to prove reckless intent which I believe is clearly visible. I can't see why they'd arrest this guy unless they intended to charge him.
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It's not something Ice Hockey players do as part of the game, even in the more physical moments to deliberately impede a player. There is no reason to ever do that which is why we've never seen the likes of it before. Would it not be hard to argue that no harm was intentional?
Sadly it was always going to result in him being arrested as there is just no getting away from the fact his actions have resulted in someone's death (much like a driver is arrested when a child runs out in front of a car), by the very definition I would say he's possibly guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter because he could be classed as reckless, if they can prove intent (which I think will be very hard to do) then he could be guilty of Voluntary Manslaughter but as I'm not a lawyer I really couldn't call one way or the other, but I'd like to think that he didn't purposely try and hit Johnson with his skate.
There's 2 different types of manslaughter in UK law. Voluntary manslaughter is when the killer had the intention to kill or cause serious harm, but had a partial defence, such as provocation or diminished responsibility. Involuntary manslaughter is when the killer had no intention to kill or cause serious harm, but acted with gross negligence or recklessness.
There's 2 different types of manslaughter in UK law. Voluntary manslaughter is when the killer had the intention to kill or cause serious harm, but had a partial defence, such as provocation or diminished responsibility. Involuntary manslaughter is when the killer had no intention to kill or cause serious harm, but acted with gross negligence or recklessness.
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Its complicated, its Sport what happens in boxing/MMA when this happens after the event due the event or a Jockey passes away after a horse falls etc.
Glad it wont be me having to sit and decide this one tbh. Still got Tickets for the Manchester game on Saturday, going to be a strange atmosphere, half of me wants to go the other half doesn't will decide on the day me thinks.
Glad it wont be me having to sit and decide this one tbh. Still got Tickets for the Manchester game on Saturday, going to be a strange atmosphere, half of me wants to go the other half doesn't will decide on the day me thinks.
Soldato
I don’t really have an opinion on this as I haven’t watched the video but I would be concerned about the wider ramifications for other incidents particularly in combat sports.
Man of Honour
Other sports don't have a blade on the end of your legs that a victim doesn't expect to come neck height at them.
Soldato
But some ask you to beat a guy until he is unconscious and nobody expects a boxer to be charged with man slaughter if it goes wrong. I’m not saying they shouldn’t but there will be wider ramifications.
Man of Honour
The major difference is you go in a ring/Octagon knowing that's what your opponent is going to do but the Refs are experienced enough to know when to stop it 99.9999% of the time.
You play Hockey knowing you are going to get roughed up but nobody expects a flying kick to the neck with a blade.
I'm still on the fence about this, originally it looked on purpose but I'm willing to accept gravity and laws of motion if proved accidental.
Soldato
Expectation of injury doesn’t remove the criminal offence, there is also potential knock on for other sports does a badly timed slide tackle that breaks someone leg become assault/abh do grass roots players want to risk criminal records that could negatively impact a career off the pitch?
I don’t have the answers I’m just concerned about the wider ramifications of criminalising a sportsman for something that happens during a game. Will be interesting if it does go to court as well as the threshold for a guilty verdict is pretty high proving beyond reasonable doubt is pretty difficult in this sort of case.
Its a isolated incident really and should be taken as such. It`s wrong to call up other sports as examples. We cant allow this tragic accident to have ramifications on sport elsewhere everyone who plays sport fully understands the risks no matter the level, whether its bending over to play snooker giving you a bad back or riding 150mph into a Tree at the TT.
He will get involuntary manslaughter and should not be allowed to skate again as a pro. (still leaves the door open to earn a living off ice in the game) Its not a easy one as its not clear but it was a dirty hit not great but does happen often.
He will get involuntary manslaughter and should not be allowed to skate again as a pro. (still leaves the door open to earn a living off ice in the game) Its not a easy one as its not clear but it was a dirty hit not great but does happen often.
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Caporegime
He's been released on police bail, so now we wait to see if he'll be charged.