Fulham last season performed better than you have this season (at this stage), think it's a perfectly reasonable opinion. They had a spine of Hangeland, Murphy and Zamora all on form which is more than can be said for Liverpool right now.
Roy Hodgeson
- Thread starter TangoSixteen
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Hodgson took over a far higher quality side in Liverpool both in terms of individual ability and the team as a whole, yet managed fewer points.
It's the managers responsibility to get individuals and the team perfroming well so to comment on poor we are playing now only highlights how poorly Hodsgson has done.
So if you weren't on the wind up, you're just delusional.
edit: I actually made a point of saying that Hodgson had a no lose job when he took over. We underachieved last season and I honestly couldn't see how it would be possible for us to do any worse. Yet even with Everton and Villa having nightmare starts to the season, we're still doing far worse than anybody could have expected.
It's the managers responsibility to get individuals and the team perfroming well so to comment on poor we are playing now only highlights how poorly Hodsgson has done.
So if you weren't on the wind up, you're just delusional.
edit: I actually made a point of saying that Hodgson had a no lose job when he took over. We underachieved last season and I honestly couldn't see how it would be possible for us to do any worse. Yet even with Everton and Villa having nightmare starts to the season, we're still doing far worse than anybody could have expected.
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Caporegime
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Again completely ignoring how utterly crap you were in the second half of last season for the sake of it(much of the first half of the season aswell to be honest).
SEriously Liverpool fans come across as unaware they finished 7th last season, after a not to shabby start, you realise you were utterly awful in the second half of last season, seriously can you not admit how completely rubbish you were, for instance a single away win from Jan 1st to the end of the season?
You consistantly ignore that and then post like above, where you think you are worse under Hodgson than second half of last season.
ITs getting truly ridiculous that every couple of pages you get back to this "Liverpool were great last season, Hodgson has suddenly made us dramatically worse".
Its utter utter horsecrap, not only that, you have a weaker team than last year, not only that, Torres is performing worse than at any stage last year, Gerrard is out injured, Mascherano, hmm, I don' tthink I've seen him start a game recently, have you, not for Liverpool at least.
YOu are completely unwilling to accept two simple things, the squad is worse than last year, because the team had to sell and thats nothing to do with Hodgson, secondly, that Liverpool were rubbish for 6 months BEFORE Hodgson got there.
Oh wait, let me guess, you also can't see the difference, between 1 in in the first 8 games, and 5 in the next 9 right, theres also been no improvement, whatsoever.
Firstly, home form this year IS 3rd in the league, away form much worse, but improving. the last 9 games, 5 wins, 1 draw, 16 points, over a season its ROUGHLY 4 times that, so you'd be looking at 64 points for the season on current form, not terrible. If you can't accept a new manager can take time to get new idea's across and the team was performing abysmally before he got there, fine, be delusional.
64 points isn't by any means great, but form is improving, and your 2 best players haven't shown up this season so far, and you've got a weaker squad than last year. But then again, it would be more than 64 points, that was rough and less games, you only got 63 points last year.
As for Fulham doing terribly second half of last year, that certainly didn't in any way coincide with a long Europa cup run and a very clear and obvious sacrificing of league form for the cup run with a tiny squad? Of course not.
Whats also funny is, last year, Fulham beat you at their place and got a draw at your place, same manager with, as you put it, a MUCH weaker squad.
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Yet you don't have a defender performing as well as Hangeland was, a midfielder playing as well as Murphy or a striker playing as well as Zamora which was my point (despite how good you think your players are, they're just not playing well, and you judge players on their performance). Can't see how it's a wind up, your players aren't playing very well.
I don't know if it's Hodgson's fault or the personnel aren't very good any more/aren't being positively influenced by (a good)Gerrard/(a good)Torres/Mascherano/Alonso anymore, but I can guarantee the likes of N'gog, Babel, Maxi, Poulson, Johnson etc. aren't good enough for where you want to be, Hodgson can't help that (apart from buying Poulson??). You put enough of these average players in the starting XI and it ruins the flow of the entire side. Don't forget that much, much before the Hodgson era most football fans called you a two man team (not me) and didn't much rate the people that surrounded them, not much has changed, apart from now one of the two is injured and the other is off form
You don't have anybody playing really well to drag the others up, and Hodgson can't be blamed for the likes of Reina (your best player recently) dropping the ball in his net more than once already, or the lack of basic ability in the middle of the park (passing), if your midfielders constantly get 10 yard passes wrong then there's little that Hodgson can do to remedy something like that
I don't know if it's Hodgson's fault or the personnel aren't very good any more/aren't being positively influenced by (a good)Gerrard/(a good)Torres/Mascherano/Alonso anymore, but I can guarantee the likes of N'gog, Babel, Maxi, Poulson, Johnson etc. aren't good enough for where you want to be, Hodgson can't help that (apart from buying Poulson??). You put enough of these average players in the starting XI and it ruins the flow of the entire side. Don't forget that much, much before the Hodgson era most football fans called you a two man team (not me) and didn't much rate the people that surrounded them, not much has changed, apart from now one of the two is injured and the other is off form
You don't have anybody playing really well to drag the others up, and Hodgson can't be blamed for the likes of Reina (your best player recently) dropping the ball in his net more than once already, or the lack of basic ability in the middle of the park (passing), if your midfielders constantly get 10 yard passes wrong then there's little that Hodgson can do to remedy something like that
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Down to tactics, theres a good piece somewhere i read, which im not even going to bother finding the link for .. you go find it if you dont believe me.. that proves that as a unit we'r playing about 35 yards further back then we were under Rafa, both at home and away from home.
And oh look, we'r conceding more and scoring less , co-incidence ?
And oh look, we'r conceding more and scoring less , co-incidence ?
Yeah because you don't have any good midfielders any more, it's natural for a team to drop deeper when the quality of the personnel drops as vastly as it has at Liverpool, you can't replace Alonso and Mascherano as poorly as you have and expect to play the same game, surely? Even Gerrard isn't playing!
Happened on Monday with Arsenal, no Fabregas? Meant the whole team had to drop deeper and defend a lot more rigidly, it meant that they couldn't commit that many bodies forwards and subsequently Arsenal's attack was stifled and easier to break down. It isn't rocket surgery!
Happened on Monday with Arsenal, no Fabregas? Meant the whole team had to drop deeper and defend a lot more rigidly, it meant that they couldn't commit that many bodies forwards and subsequently Arsenal's attack was stifled and easier to break down. It isn't rocket surgery!
Yet most of our goals are being leaked because of that joke of a Roy signing in the LB position.
At home its less of a problem, because Lucas and Mereiles are allowed to close down / double up on the flanks etc, basically one closes down whilst one 'anchors' in midfield to act as an outlet etc.
Yet away from home, both are told not to close down (this was pretty obvious from the newcastle game. . never breaking line shape with the two 'wide' players in the entire game pretty much) because Roy has some stupid obsession with shape.
So what happens then?
Opponents continually bombard us down our left / their right, targeting Paul ****ing Konchesky and we concede again, and again, and again.
If we actually played higher up then at least we might score some to compensate but no.. uncle Woy knows best.
-edit-
As for your point about Gerrard, he is a liability in Midfield.. sorry to say.
Terrible traditional Midfield player, can only operate as part of a midfield 3 or behind the front man.
He's our Iniesta, of sorts.
Mascherano and Alonso? both would look terrible under these tactics. What would Mascherano offer if he wasnt allowed to go win the ball back? the way we play away from home we might as well replace our midfield four with traffic cones.
Hell Barca would look terrible under this poor imitation of a manager.
-edit 2-
And whilst im on the topic! Looking at possession / shooting / passing heat-maps under Roy compared to the last few years w/ Rafa.
Torres is receiving the ball on average 30-35 yards further back.
Torres is receiving on average some 40% less passes outside of the box.
Torres is receiving on average ~ 85% less passes inside or on the edge of the box.
Yet Torres is still managing 55 shots on target this year after 17 games, which is consistent with all of his years at LFC, except his second which he only managed 41 on target, although his goals/shots ratio was higher then too.
What does this prove ? It shows Torres is being anything but lazy, infact he's working even harder then he has been in previous seasons! How else would you explain having the same no of shots with significantly less service? he's having to pretty much do it alone.
And why is this? because the entire team is dropped back too far, is told to keep shape way too much and when he gets the ball, turns he has nothing but a wall of defenders to run into, where previously he had Gerrard running on, Kuyt / Benny out wide as well as our 'midfield two' sitting about where they do now to get short passes back.
Now? our wide men are not allowed to break past torres, they must keep shape.
Our other front man is told, its clear as daylight on that tactics board, to keep close to Torres, dont break up / away from him as this allows us to play long ball (sigh) better.
Torres has no options, at all, and this is all down to poor tactics on Roy's part.
At home its less of a problem, because Lucas and Mereiles are allowed to close down / double up on the flanks etc, basically one closes down whilst one 'anchors' in midfield to act as an outlet etc.
Yet away from home, both are told not to close down (this was pretty obvious from the newcastle game. . never breaking line shape with the two 'wide' players in the entire game pretty much) because Roy has some stupid obsession with shape.
So what happens then?
Opponents continually bombard us down our left / their right, targeting Paul ****ing Konchesky and we concede again, and again, and again.
If we actually played higher up then at least we might score some to compensate but no.. uncle Woy knows best.
-edit-
As for your point about Gerrard, he is a liability in Midfield.. sorry to say.
Terrible traditional Midfield player, can only operate as part of a midfield 3 or behind the front man.
He's our Iniesta, of sorts.
Mascherano and Alonso? both would look terrible under these tactics. What would Mascherano offer if he wasnt allowed to go win the ball back? the way we play away from home we might as well replace our midfield four with traffic cones.
Hell Barca would look terrible under this poor imitation of a manager.
-edit 2-
And whilst im on the topic! Looking at possession / shooting / passing heat-maps under Roy compared to the last few years w/ Rafa.
Torres is receiving the ball on average 30-35 yards further back.
Torres is receiving on average some 40% less passes outside of the box.
Torres is receiving on average ~ 85% less passes inside or on the edge of the box.
Yet Torres is still managing 55 shots on target this year after 17 games, which is consistent with all of his years at LFC, except his second which he only managed 41 on target, although his goals/shots ratio was higher then too.
What does this prove ? It shows Torres is being anything but lazy, infact he's working even harder then he has been in previous seasons! How else would you explain having the same no of shots with significantly less service? he's having to pretty much do it alone.
And why is this? because the entire team is dropped back too far, is told to keep shape way too much and when he gets the ball, turns he has nothing but a wall of defenders to run into, where previously he had Gerrard running on, Kuyt / Benny out wide as well as our 'midfield two' sitting about where they do now to get short passes back.
Now? our wide men are not allowed to break past torres, they must keep shape.
Our other front man is told, its clear as daylight on that tactics board, to keep close to Torres, dont break up / away from him as this allows us to play long ball (sigh) better.
Torres has no options, at all, and this is all down to poor tactics on Roy's part.
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I have to say that I think it's an error for Roy to be playing that deep against poorer opposition who don't have the quality to punish you every time, he should be taking some more risks.
The tactics clearly aren't perfect but I think his hand is being forced by not having exactly the type of players he wants, again, you have to question why he took the job if that was the case.
I do think Liverpool fans are going over the top though and it's shortsighted not to admit you have a problem with playing staff right now, not just the manager.
The tactics clearly aren't perfect but I think his hand is being forced by not having exactly the type of players he wants, again, you have to question why he took the job if that was the case.
I do think Liverpool fans are going over the top though and it's shortsighted not to admit you have a problem with playing staff right now, not just the manager.
Jesus Christ
You don't get it at all, do you?
Hodgson has taken over a side that was far better than Fulham in every way possible. If the side is not performing now, who's responsibility is it? The managers!
If it was the odd poor performance from the team you could blame the players. If it was 1 or 2 individuals that are under performing, you could blame the players. But when the team as a whole has underperformed consistently, then you look to the manager.
You're right about the standard of our CM's though; Lucas, Merieles and Gerrard aren't up to the standard of Murphy or Etuhu
I've said it before but some of your posts are DM worthy, jakeke.
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It's obviously not all the managers fault that's what I'm trying to say (and most non-Liverpool fans). Maybe your players aren't as good as you think they are. The line-up that I've seen recently is not very good and one I'd define as a mid table team. Maybe this changes with a fit Gerrard and Torres, but right now it isn't good enough to be in the European spots.
Also, it's not so much Merieles or Gerrard who is the problem, it's the rubbish that surrounds them, how can't you understand that? Too many average players will bring down the performances of your decent players, and as far as I can tell, there's too many average players frequenting your starting XI.
Edit- vs Newcastle was your midfield Lucas-Merieles-Maxi-Kuyt?
Swap Merieles for Fabregas and I bet even he would struggle to craft anything surrounded by those 3.
Also, it's not so much Merieles or Gerrard who is the problem, it's the rubbish that surrounds them, how can't you understand that? Too many average players will bring down the performances of your decent players, and as far as I can tell, there's too many average players frequenting your starting XI.
Edit- vs Newcastle was your midfield Lucas-Merieles-Maxi-Kuyt?
Swap Merieles for Fabregas and I bet even he would struggle to craft anything surrounded by those 3.
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The ultimate responsibility falls with the manager. I said the exact same thing when we underperformed last season.
If the team and individuals keep performing well below the standards we know they can perform at, and below the standards of last season where we underperformed, then it's the managers job to do something.
As for the mid-table stuff, if it's based on how we're playing under Hodgson then possible, but you're saying it's based on the standard of players available to us and that's BS. Instead of making off the cuff remarks like that, come up with the other 9 teams/squads that are stronger than ours.
It's about your starting XI, not squad, your most recent XI was
Liverpool
* 25 Reina
* 02 G Johnson
* 03 Konchesky
* 16 Kyrgiakos
* 37 Skrtel
* 04 Raul Meireles
* 17 Maxi (Jovanovic 85)
* 21 Lucas
* 09 Torres
* 18 Kuyt
* 24 Ngog (Babel 72)
Call me crazy but that is not great, even if Torres was fit there is a massive, massive lack of guile behind him.
Liverpool
* 25 Reina
* 02 G Johnson
* 03 Konchesky
* 16 Kyrgiakos
* 37 Skrtel
* 04 Raul Meireles
* 17 Maxi (Jovanovic 85)
* 21 Lucas
* 09 Torres
* 18 Kuyt
* 24 Ngog (Babel 72)
Call me crazy but that is not great, even if Torres was fit there is a massive, massive lack of guile behind him.
I'm not calling you crazy, I'm saying you're either a wum or delusional.
Again, come up with 9 other 11's that are stronger than that.
edit: even without at least 3 of our first 11 not being there, you still won't be able to come up with more than 5.
Again, come up with 9 other 11's that are stronger than that.
edit: even without at least 3 of our first 11 not being there, you still won't be able to come up with more than 5.
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What dont you understand? Kuyt was perfectly effective under Rafa, and our left-side has been fail for years so Maxi being there is much the same as whoever was there before.
What has changed is, previously when Torres/Gerrard (Or this year it would be Torres / Ngog) got the ball and looked for options, they had Kuyt and the left sided player up level with him, wide (Yeah, they cut inside after getting the ball, but they were wide to begin with) and Gerrard looking to burst in behind, or Torres if Gerrard won the ball.
Now? Torres gets the ball, looks around .. all our players are holding a line of 4 behind him, ball has to go back. Rinse - repeat.
Konchesky and Poulsen for example?
Or how about Carlton Cole..
He can keep the type of players he wants, because the fans dont want to be sharing the same stadium with these useless jokes of footballing 'talent'.
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Not sure I can be bothered to look it up, but undoubtedly the top 5, Bolton have been ace all season (induviduals and team performances) and deserve their spot, as have Sunderland (besides losing heavily to Newcastle, but we all know that feeling), but I guess they're not fashionable enough to count
So the players available to Bolton, Sunderland and Newcastle are of a higher standard than ours?
Time to join DM on ignore.
Do it, I may have a few weeks of sleepless nights but I may one day get over it, and you know what? I'll be a better man for it and I will thank you one day.
(For the record Lee and Holden have been far better than any of your 'superstars' - and this extends to the end of last season when God was still in charge)
(For the record Lee and Holden have been far better than any of your 'superstars' - and this extends to the end of last season when God was still in charge)
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2 players, wooo 
(for the record - I havnt been impressed by Holden at all, ill concede Lee though!)
Still say its all down to tactics.
We'r playing 4-4-2 (And not even a modern spin on 4-4-2 like United use on occasions .. the traditional Lump it up field 4-4-2 for us
) with a set of players suited for 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or a diamond 4-4-2.
(for the record - I havnt been impressed by Holden at all, ill concede Lee though!)Still say its all down to tactics.
We'r playing 4-4-2 (And not even a modern spin on 4-4-2 like United use on occasions .. the traditional Lump it up field 4-4-2 for us
) with a set of players suited for 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or a diamond 4-4-2.You haven't been watching him closely enough then 
watch his tackling next game, nothing gets past him, he also has fantastic passing technique
I'll watch Liverpool tonight anyway, and I'll be looking out for the strength in depth that you guys claim Liverpool have, it's a game vs fairly easy opposition so all the induvidual battles should be easily won by Liverpool if the players are as skilled as people claim
watch his tackling next game, nothing gets past him, he also has fantastic passing techniqueI'll watch Liverpool tonight anyway, and I'll be looking out for the strength in depth that you guys claim Liverpool have, it's a game vs fairly easy opposition so all the induvidual battles should be easily won by Liverpool if the players are as skilled as people claim
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Roy's Away wins
Liverpool
2010/11 1 as of 13/11/2010
Fulham
2009/10 1
2008/09 3
2007/08 3
Blackburn
1997/98 5 - 3 of these came with goals in Injury time, 2 of which were dodgy pens.
So he won 12.
Compare to Rafa
Liverpool
2009/2010 5
2008/2009 13
2007/2008 9
2006/2007 6
2005/2006 10
2004/2005 5
And to add to that, our defeats away from home last season were always by a 1 goal margin, Roy's already averaging over 2 goals against per away game and averages less then 1 goal for. Additionally - most our 'not wins' with Rafa were draws .. most under Roy are looking to be going into the Lost column.
Thats just his PL record too, look at his away record for all of his other teams and its much the same.
The guy's tactics cannot buy a win away from home, but your right .. its all down to our players
-edit-
Annnd because i should be working! Here's more rant XD
But i wonder if Roy can match Rafa in the second half of the season?
we scored 25 goals in the last 19 matches.
we conceded 10 goals in our last 19 matches. ( the only time we let in 2 goals were both losses. 2-1 to Man Utd away and 2-0 to Chelsea at home).
9W--6D--4L, 25 F ,10 A ,15 GD= 33 points. Under Roy, over 38 games we are heading for 38 ~ 39 points So Rafa, in his worst season, managed to almost equal Roy's projected 38 game total in 19 games.
Liverpool
2010/11 1 as of 13/11/2010
Fulham
2009/10 1
2008/09 3
2007/08 3
Blackburn
1997/98 5 - 3 of these came with goals in Injury time, 2 of which were dodgy pens.
So he won 12.
Compare to Rafa
Liverpool
2009/2010 5
2008/2009 13
2007/2008 9
2006/2007 6
2005/2006 10
2004/2005 5
And to add to that, our defeats away from home last season were always by a 1 goal margin, Roy's already averaging over 2 goals against per away game and averages less then 1 goal for. Additionally - most our 'not wins' with Rafa were draws .. most under Roy are looking to be going into the Lost column.
Thats just his PL record too, look at his away record for all of his other teams and its much the same.
The guy's tactics cannot buy a win away from home, but your right .. its all down to our players
-edit-
Annnd because i should be working! Here's more rant XD
But i wonder if Roy can match Rafa in the second half of the season?
we scored 25 goals in the last 19 matches.
we conceded 10 goals in our last 19 matches. ( the only time we let in 2 goals were both losses. 2-1 to Man Utd away and 2-0 to Chelsea at home).
9W--6D--4L, 25 F ,10 A ,15 GD= 33 points. Under Roy, over 38 games we are heading for 38 ~ 39 points
So Rafa, in his worst season, managed to almost equal Roy's projected 38 game total in 19 games.
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