'Russia is seriously running out of cash'

[h4rm0ny]

All mere speculation.

Not really. I know how most people in the UK regard jobless anarchists who drift between squats and show up at protests shouting for people to attack the police is. The middle class doesn't care when they get arrested and they don't like the 'professional protestor' type. And they really freak the Hell out if they find them crashing a place next door. People were baying for blood when someone climbed the Cenotaph. Imagine people staging an occupation of Westminster Abbey. It's hardly "mere speculation" to say that Pussy Riot would not be a cause celebré if they were British.

We have people who incite religious hatred in the West. The middle class hardly holds them up as innocent victims of oppression.

 

[Tefal]

Not really. I know how most people in the UK regard jobless anarchists who drift between squats and show up at protests shouting for people to attack the police is. The middle class doesn't care when they get arrested and they don't like the 'professional protestor' type. And they really freak the Hell out if they find them crashing a place next door. People were baying for blood when someone climbed the Cenotaph. Imagine people staging an occupation of Westminster Abbey. It's hardly "mere speculation" to say that Pussy Riot would not be a cause celebré if they were British.

We have people who incite religious hatred in the West. The middle class hardly holds them up as innocent victims of oppression.

Westminster abby or any coe building would be a legitimate place to protest though as they are part of our government.

 

[Tefal]

And the West fostered ISIS, who have been throwing homosexuals from the roofs of four-storey buildings in Syria. Your initial point was to damn Russia for its attitude to LGBT. You now seem to be arguing that USA is not worse.

r.

My point was the state of LGBT rights in russia which are appaling (trans people are banned from driving for instance) some random rambling about the middle east is just a straw man.

Its a comparison between the direct rules of russia and America.

Both sides support abhorrent regimes arpund the world mainly to opose the abhorent regimes the other supports.

You now seem to be arguing that USA is not worse.

It isnt worse.

In the land where america writes the laws lgbt rights while not as advanced as western europe are much better than russia.

You csnt jist point to random terrror organisations and claim they're comparable to the law in either country.

 

[RoboCod]

Not really. I know how most people in the UK regard jobless anarchists who drift between squats and show up at protests shouting for people to attack the police is. The middle class doesn't care when they get arrested and they don't like the 'professional protestor' type. And they really freak the Hell out if they find them crashing a place next door. People were baying for blood when someone climbed the Cenotaph. Imagine people staging an occupation of Westminster Abbey. It's hardly "mere speculation" to say that Pussy Riot would not be a cause celebré if they were British.

We have people who incite religious hatred in the West. The middle class hardly holds them up as innocent victims of oppression.

If you read back what I quoted again, you might see it is in fact your own speculation. Of course, you might not think that because you'd like to think you're 100% right. Fact of the matter is, you probably aren't.

 

[RoboCod]

My point was the state of LGBT rights in russia which are appaling (trans people are banned from driving for instance) some random rambling about the middle east is just a straw man.

Its a comparison between the direct rules of russia and America.

Both sides support abhorrent regimes arpund the world mainly to opose the abhorent regimes the other supports.



It isnt worse.

In the land where america writes the laws lgbt rights while not as advanced as western europe are much better than russia.

You csnt jist point to random terrror organisations and claim they're comparable to the law in either country.

Indeed, there is no denying either government is bad but to not criticise Russia and instead state "well uhhh US bad because, well uhhh the Middle East and stuff" clearly shows that you have an agenda to divert.

 

[Zethor]

You must have been off your meds for quite some time to compare the US with Russia and conclude their are 'just as bad'.

 

[RoboCod]

Another fanboy picking a side. Cute , but quite daft.

 

[Tefal]

You must have been off your meds for quite some time to compare the US with Russia and conclude their are 'just as bad'.

He actually said theyre both bad not just as bad.

.id say that theyre both bad is a very accurate description of thier governments.

Try taking your meds they might help you to read whats writen not what you want to be writen

 

[RaohNS]

Not really. I know how most people in the UK regard jobless anarchists who drift between squats and show up at protests shouting for people to attack the police is. The middle class doesn't care when they get arrested and they don't like the 'professional protestor' type. And they really freak the Hell out if they find them crashing a place next door. People were baying for blood when someone climbed the Cenotaph. Imagine people staging an occupation of Westminster Abbey. It's hardly "mere speculation" to say that Pussy Riot would not be a cause celebré if they were British.

We have people who incite religious hatred in the West. The middle class hardly holds them up as innocent victims of oppression.

On the Pussy riot front, they are the worst use given their actions. Its odd, I wonder how many of the Russia is (insert anything bad here) group have actually been to Russia.

 

[Dis86]

On the Pussy riot front, they are the worst use given their actions. Its odd, I wonder how many of the Russia is (insert anything bad here) group have actually been to Russia.

I don't have aids. I know aids is bad.

 

[RaohNS]

I don't have aids. I know aids is bad.

Well done dis... At least you are learning

 

[h4rm0ny]

He actually said theyre both bad not just as bad.

.id say that theyre both bad is a very accurate description of thier governments.

Try taking your meds they might help you to read whats writen not what you want to be writen

Though we disagree I want to say I appreciate that you, unlike a couple of other posters, understand what I am saying and engage with that. Yes, I am not saying Russia is without flaw, I am saying that the USA is also with flaw. And the reason for that is because this conversation has spiralled into a wider discussion of geopolitics with people taking sides in a USA vs. Russia conversation. We have had debate about where troops are positioned, which countries USA and Russia are allied with or support, etc. And some are attempting to justify US foreign policy by casting Russia as a Bad Guy. Aside from being hopelessly naïve as an approach to modern politics, it is a distraction. One cannot respond to criticism of NATO military policy by saying LGBT people don't have sufficient rights in Russia or are discriminated against.

Well, of course you can but it's trying to create a narrative of Good Guy / Bad Guy which is put about by people for purposes of justifying behaviour. That's the issue. I'm arguing the point not because Russia is a Gay Utopia and Moscow the San Francisco of the East. I'm arguing it because it is partisan. The USA has a tonne of prejudice against gay people. It has better legal protections and so is ahead of Russia in its protection of minorities which is good, but it also supports a number of very vicious regimes including having fostered an organization that is currently throwing gay people off rooftops. And violent homophobia is one atrocity amongst many.

If I were in Russia having a conversation about China, I might well be pointing out double-standards in the views of Russian posters. Why? Because people don't view things objectively. One points out that Russia isn't the aggressor and that the USA and NATO are building up massive forces around Russia, imposing sanctions of very dubious legality on Russia, et al., and people start trying to create a Good Guy / Bad Guy narrative.

It's the language of chickens discussing their favourite farmer. And to do so, they're exaggerating (in many cases) and selectively discussing the other farmer whilst ditching the context of any comparison to their own. If one is going to criticize one political power in a discussion of which country is right or wrong in an action, then the criticism has to be a relative one, by the nature of the purpose of the criticism. (I add this last to forestall Tefal responding that a flaw isn't made better by someone else sharing it. It isn't if the purpose is to discuss how we can fix that flaw, but if the context is trying to show one country as a villain, then it's a valid counter-argument.)

That's where I'm coming from.

 

[Washout]

Pussy Riot's sentence was overly-harsh (I'm quoting Putin here)...

A great example of how Putin and his government are geniuses at propaganda and obfuscation. Does anyone seriously believe that if Putin really thought they shouldn't be in jail for that long that they wouldn't?!
Other great examples are where rival political parties suddenly find some of their funding has been coming from folks linked at the hip to the Kremlin. Said groups soon fall apart as no one knows to what extent they've been subverted or how much trouble from the authorities could be coming their way.

Of course those that can't be subverted, either journalists or politicians, could just find themselves dead. I think Putin was personally taking charge of the investigation on one of those... Did they find the poor scapegoat that did it?

A clever man, hate the way he's gone about things in his country but have to respect him. Maybe in Russia it's the only way to get things done. Do worry what may happen should he lose the plot or when/if he ever gives up the presidency. Did he get the constitution changed so he can perpetually win it or will he have to take another 4 year hiatus before coming back?
Having said that the Russian economy is tanking (yes, sanctions taking a large toll), perhaps he could prop it up with some of his personal fortune? Shares in Gazprom etc estimated to be worth from $100-200 billion. Being Russian president pays very well evidently!

Maybe, just maybe if Russia played ball with the rest of the world a little better, took steps to stamp out the rampant corruption that permeates every level of life there then they can turn around their fear of becoming irrelevant on the world stage. Just really comes across as chest thumping bluster. They've got such vast resources that they can very much stay an integral part of the world without the bs.

 

[RaohNS]

A great example of how Putin and his government are geniuses at propaganda and obfuscation. Does anyone seriously believe that if Putin really thought they shouldn't be in jail for that long that they wouldn't?!
Other great examples are where rival political parties suddenly find some of their funding has been coming from folks linked at the hip to the Kremlin. Said groups soon fall apart as no one knows to what extent they've been subverted or how much trouble from the authorities could be coming their way.

Of course those that can't be subverted, either journalists or politicians, could just find themselves dead. I think Putin was personally taking charge of the investigation on one of those... Did they find the poor scapegoat that did it?

A clever man, hate the way he's gone about things in his country but have to respect him. Maybe in Russia it's the only way to get things done. Do worry what may happen should he lose the plot or when/if he ever gives up the presidency. Did he get the constitution changed so he can perpetually win it or will he have to take another 4 year hiatus before coming back?
Having said that the Russian economy is tanking (yes, sanctions taking a large toll), perhaps he could prop it up with some of his personal fortune? Shares in Gazprom etc estimated to be worth from $100-200 billion. Being Russian president pays very well evidently!

Maybe, just maybe if Russia played ball with the rest of the world a little better, took steps to stamp out the rampant corruption that permeates every level of life there then they can turn around their fear of becoming irrelevant on the world stage. Just really comes across as chest thumping bluster. They've got such vast resources that they can very much stay an integral part of the world without the bs.

Change the word Russia with US and Putin with Senators and POTUS and it still fits. Uncanny that

 

[Dis86]

Well done dis... At least you are learning

Lol. Sod off!

 

[RoboCod]

Well, of course you can but it's trying to create a narrative of Good Guy / Bad Guy which is put about by people for purposes of justifying behaviour. That's the issue.

which is exactly what you are guilty of doing yourself above.

 

[Washout]

On the NATO build up. NATOs whole reason for existing is a mutual defence pact. After Russia's annexation of a part of a sovereign nation and the arming of rebels in Russian ethnicity areas of the same country can you really blame a build up?!
There are NATO members with borders to Russia with large Russian communities that would rightfully be very alarmed with what happened. If NATO sat on their haunches and didn't take steps to underscore similar actions won't be tolerated then it may as well not exist.

Put it another way, do you think the British government would sit back if the Republic of Ireland suddenly took over the north, by gunpoint?

 

[RaohNS]

Lol. Sod off!

No worries

 

[Tefal]

Though we disagree I want to say I appreciate that you, unlike a couple of other posters, understand what I am saying and engage with that. Yes, I am not saying Russia is without flaw, I am saying that the USA is also with flaw. And the reason for that is because this conversation has spiralled into a wider discussion of geopolitics with people taking sides in a USA vs. Russia conversation. We have had debate about where troops are positioned, which countries USA and Russia are allied with or support, etc. And some are attempting to justify US foreign policy by casting Russia as a Bad Guy. Aside from being hopelessly naïve as an approach to modern politics, it is a distraction. One cannot respond to criticism of NATO military policy by saying LGBT people don't have sufficient rights in Russia or are discriminated against.

Well, of course you can but it's trying to create a narrative of Good Guy / Bad Guy which is put about by people for purposes of justifying behaviour. That's the issue. I'm arguing the point not because Russia is a Gay Utopia and Moscow the San Francisco of the East. I'm arguing it because it is partisan. The USA has a tonne of prejudice against gay people. It has better legal protections and so is ahead of Russia in its protection of minorities which is good, but it also supports a number of very vicious regimes including having fostered an organization that is currently throwing gay people off rooftops. And violent homophobia is one atrocity amongst many.

If I were in Russia having a conversation about China, I might well be pointing out double-standards in the views of Russian posters. Why? Because people don't view things objectively. One points out that Russia isn't the aggressor and that the USA and NATO are building up massive forces around Russia, imposing sanctions of very dubious legality on Russia, et al., and people start trying to create a Good Guy / Bad Guy narrative.

It's the language of chickens discussing their favourite farmer. And to do so, they're exaggerating (in many cases) and selectively discussing the other farmer whilst ditching the context of any comparison to their own. If one is going to criticize one political power in a discussion of which country is right or wrong in an action, then the criticism has to be a relative one, by the nature of the purpose of the criticism. (I add this last to forestall Tefal responding that a flaw isn't made better by someone else sharing it. It isn't if the purpose is to discuss how we can fix that flaw, but if the context is trying to show one country as a villain, then it's a valid counter-argument.)

That's where I'm coming from.

put it this way id be much happier if the necessary counter point to the USA's politics was the EU style of politics.

not Russia or china.

them simply being the traditional opposites is not a good reason to keep them as such.

they're both very backwards regimes and have a long way to go before reaching the levels where they should be lauded as a viable alternative.

The USA has a tonne of prejudice against gay people. It has better legal protections and so is ahead of Russia in its protection of minorities which is good, but it also supports a number of very vicious regimes including having fostered an organization that is currently throwing gay people off rooftops. And violent homophobia is one atrocity amongst many.

but so does russia, so that's a moot point, both support far more vicious regimes than themselves, so it's a pointless argument. (and im not going to touch the fostering ISIS as thats far too complex and issue)

the discussion here was between the lans the usa and russia directly control.

 

[RaohNS]

On the NATO build up. NATOs whole reason for existing is a mutual defence pact. After Russia's annexation of a part of a sovereign nation and the arming of rebels in Russian ethnicity areas of the same country can you really blame a build up?!

After the people voted to rejoin Russia. You may not like how people vote but that's just tough. NATO countries are all around Russia. You only have to look at US military bases overseas. Russia are in a military ring.

There are NATO members with borders to Russia with large Russian communities that would rightfully be very alarmed with what happened. If NATO sat on their haunches and didn't take steps to underscore similar actions won't be tolerated then it may as well not exist.

True enough, but don't provoke or meddle.

Put it another way, do you think the British government would sit back if the Republic of Ireland suddenly took over the north, by gunpoint?

That's very different. If NI voted to rejoin Eire then it could.