Ryzen "2" ?

DoneADougalOnSofa · 25 Apr 2018 at 17:38

Had a few RAM issues myself.
DOCP profile- total refusal to boot at 3200 until I put an extra 0.05v on mem volts. Also have to set RAM speed to Auto (a couple of boxes underneath where you select Auto/manual/DOCP ram profiles), and just let DOCP do its thing. If I select DDR4-3200 as well as DOCP it's back to bootloop and safe mode...
Just done BIOS update, but not solved the problem. Can live with a tickle more voltage though, not the end of the world. Got everything up and running at a leisurely 2133MHZ!

DragonQ · 25 Apr 2018 at 17:45

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
Looks like the AT results were down to HPET issues:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12678/a-timely-discovery-examining-amd-2nd-gen-ryzen-results

To summarise: Intel's CPUs take a huge performance hit in gaming when HPET is force-enabled in the OS (wildly varying from 0 to 76% better results with it off), whereas AMD's CPUs take a smaller hit (mostly nothing but a few games are 10-15% faster with it off). Anandtech had HPET force-enabled on both setups for parity because Ryzen Master requires it to be enabled; this led to hampered Intel performance.

chrcoluk · 25 Apr 2018 at 18:14

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
Looks like the AT results were down to HPET issues:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12678/a-timely-discovery-examining-amd-2nd-gen-ryzen-results

HPET is not even the default timer in windows for several years, so AT have been overiding the timer behaviour and not disclosing it?

Thats not good.

Also I only read the first page, as their website just died for me.

But default timers (at least for intel) are now TSC.

AndreiD · 25 Apr 2018 at 18:22

Windows Vista and up defaults to the best available timer, which usually is TSC. HPET is known to have a performance impact so Anandtech forcing HPET is a big error on their part.

kitfit1 · 25 Apr 2018 at 18:39

DragonQ said:
To summarise: Intel's CPUs take a huge performance hit in gaming when HPET is force-enabled in the OS (wildly varying from 0 to 76% better results with it off), whereas AMD's CPUs take a smaller hit (mostly nothing but a few games are 10-15% faster with it off). Anandtech had HPET force-enabled on both setups for parity because Ryzen Master requires it to be enabled; this led to hampered Intel performance.

The really stupid thing about all of this is that HPET is enabled by default in all bios's anyway. It's the OS and the app that decide the best timer to use. If Ian had let the OS do it's own thing Ryzen Master would have just used HPET, other things like games would have used TSC. It was ridiculous to script Windows to just run HPET.

Scougar · 25 Apr 2018 at 18:43

AndreiD said:
Windows Vista and up defaults to the best available timer, which usually is TSC. HPET is known to have a performance impact so Anandtech forcing HPET is a big error on their part.

"All modern x86 processors have a Time Stamp Counter (TSC) for example, that counts the number of cycles from a given core "

Doesn't sound like an accurate timer to me for using with measured time.

They were using Ryzen Master, so it isn't like they had a choice anyway. I think they were just trying to keep the playing field level, which is frankly, commendable.

Very nice to see a follow up to this from them rather than burying their heads in the sand.

HeX · 25 Apr 2018 at 18:53

chroniclard said:
I got pretty much exactly the same result, -0.05 and 101 bclk. Max 4392 on some cores.

Chewie said:
Just tried bclk 101, to see what would happen, and it seems to work just fine. Slight performances increase overall and max boost frequency achieved is now 4392.9Mhz.

Note that this is still with the -0.05 Vcore offset applied.

Just dropped a 2700X into my Taichi X370 and put those settings and getting the same. 4394MHz max single thread, sitting at ~3950 all core @ 1.20V.

Just running IBT V.High 20 loops to test now, it's about half way.

That's will the 8 pack 3200 memory running XMP profile @ ~3232MHz

EDIT: Passed fine:

4K8KW10 · 25 Apr 2018 at 19:03

So, all options in BIOS that lead to performance degradation MUST be disabled !
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/do-you-have-hpet-enabled-or-disabled.2362109/

I just disabled HPET in my BIOS and I was surprised at how noticeable the improvement was, particularly in CPU bound games like BL2 and BF4. The difference in smoothness was definitely palpable, especially since I had HPET enabled for so long.

I had known about HPET for a long time, but I still left it enabled in the BIOS because I knew it wasn't being used by the OS. For the OS to use it, it has to be turned on specifically using a bcdedit command, or sometimes the OS turns it on by itself; probably for older systems..

However, it appears that disabling it in the BIOS still impacts performance even if the OS isn't using it specifically.

Generally, I recommend not using HPET as a system timer if you have Windows 7 on up and a Core i5/7 (or AMD equivalent) based system. In these newer systems, Windows uses the newer Invariant TSC, which is a much more reliable and consistent system timer than HPET.

Anyway, my question is simple. Do you have HPET enabled or disabled in your system?

chrcoluk · 25 Apr 2018 at 19:04

Read rest of anandtech article now.

Thy saying apparently amd's software forces it on during its install process, all I Could think of is "wow" thats pretty irresponsible from AMD.

Microsoft in their official documentation said the overide only exists to help timer debugging, it shouldnt be used otherwise.

Also for giggles I just asked ryan on there "What other "tweaks" have you done on the OS and not disclosed?"

Scougar · 25 Apr 2018 at 19:09

I don't think you want to actually disable HPET, you still want it available, you just don't want the ONLY system timer to be HPET.

What you really want is HPET on in the BIOS, and it not to be the forced default in the OS. I.e. Windows can use whatever timer it determines is needed rather than being forced to use HPET.

sideways14a · 25 Apr 2018 at 19:23

chrcoluk said:
Read rest of anandtech article now.

Thy saying apparently amd's software forces it on during its install process, all I Could think of is "wow" thats pretty irresponsible from AMD.

Microsoft in their official documentation said the overide only exists to help timer debugging, it shouldnt be used otherwise.

Also for giggles I just asked ryan on there "What other "tweaks" have you done on the OS and not disclosed?"

They also said other overclocking tools or software do the same, so the question is are all results a mess?

4K8KW10 · 25 Apr 2018 at 19:29

Scougar said:
I don't think you want to actually disable HPET, you still want it available, you just don't want the ONLY system timer to be HPET.

What you really want is HPET on in the BIOS, and it not to be the forced default in the OS. I.e. Windows can use whatever timer it determines is needed rather than being forced to use HPET.

If Windows decides to use HPET and it cripples the performance, then thank you but no.
How to allow Windows to choose it then, if you say to keep in enabled in BIOS and to ask which one to use inside the OS?

kitfit1 · 25 Apr 2018 at 19:50

4K8KW10 said:
If Windows decides to use HPET and it cripples the performance, then thank you but no.
How to allow Windows to choose it then, if you say to keep in enabled in BIOS and to ask which one to use inside the OS?

If you are using Win7,8 or 10 then by default Windows does not use HPET it uses TSC. Unless an app actually needs to use HPET (like Ryzen Master). Only Ryzen Master will be using HPET, anything else running (including Windows) will be using TSC. Windows itself does not use HPET..........................unless, you change the boot script to force it to use HPET. Which is what AnandTech did.

Chewie · 25 Apr 2018 at 19:57

HeX said:
Just dropped a 2700X into my Taichi X370 and put those settings and getting the same. 4394MHz max single thread, sitting at ~3950 all core @ 1.20V.

Just running IBT V.High 20 loops to test now, it's about half way.

That's will the 8 pack 3200 memory running XMP profile @ ~3232MHz

EDIT: Passed fine:

Congrats and welcome to the club!

EsaT · 25 Apr 2018 at 19:58

sideways14a said:
They also said other overclocking tools or software do the same, so the question is are all results a mess?

Or shouldn't the question be if overclocking tools are making Windows use it on Intel platforms?

chrcoluk · 25 Apr 2018 at 20:01

sideways14a said:
They also said other overclocking tools or software do the same, so the question is are all results a mess?

no tools I have installed have ever done it, they should name all these tools.

Chewie · 25 Apr 2018 at 20:02

Scougar said:
"All modern x86 processors have a Time Stamp Counter (TSC) for example, that counts the number of cycles from a given core "

Doesn't sound like an accurate timer to me for using with measured time.

They were using Ryzen Master, so it isn't like they had a choice anyway. I think they were just trying to keep the playing field level, which is frankly, commendable.

Very nice to see a follow up to this from them rather than burying their heads in the sand.

Ryzen Master does not need HPET since version 1.1.

I can use it just fine and I have both HPET disabled at BIOS and Windows level.

sideways14a · 25 Apr 2018 at 20:02

Thats what i was wondering, how many tools actually turn this thing on? What are they and are intel systems running wonkey.

sideways14a · 25 Apr 2018 at 20:03

Thats what i was wondering, how many tools actually turn this thing on? What are they and are intel systems running wonkey.

chrcoluk · 25 Apr 2018 at 20:03

kitfit1 said:
If you are using Win7,8 or 10 then by default Windows does not use HPET it uses TSC. Unless an app actually needs to use HPET (like Ryzen Master). Only Ryzen Master will be using HPET, anything else running (including Windows) will be using TSC. Windows itself does not use HPET..........................unless, you change the boot script to force it to use HPET. Which is what AnandTech did.

correct, there should be no need for amd's tool to force HPET it just needs to request it as its timer.

e.g. hwinfo64 can use HPET simply by ticking a box in its settings providing its enabled in the bios.