Poll: Sack Race 2015/16

[mmj_uk]

Not a big fan of Carragher either, better than Owen though.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Wenger, jesus christ let Wenger be the next one fired.

Cazorla out for 3 months with fears it will be longer with knee ligament damage. Why? After playing Sanchez and losing him for a while after having a midweek hamstring problem and playing him anyway because he doesn't have the balls to do what is in the interest of the season/team rather than giving in to a player who wants to play every game he screws Cazorla.

he hurt his knee in the first freaking half, after the game he said it was worrying because it was getting worse throughout. He had the chance to sub people on for him earlier long after he hurt himself and then when Cazorla indicated it was getting worse because we'd made 3 subs he stayed on to the end. Fair play to Cazorla, kept trying on a busted knee, but again we've seen situations in which protecting the player from further damage and making an injury worse teams go down to 10 men, Wenger didn't even have the balls to do that.

Compounding a terrible decision to not take him off after the knock or at least after it was getting worse he then wouldn't just protect him and go down to 10 men. This is all after once again having his favourite 11 and playing them every game till they get injured. Cazorla has basically not been rested, nor Sanchez and shockingly they get injured. Ramsey played till he's injured and straight back in.

It's beyond bad luck, the man is entirely incompetent. Just giving Arteta/Rosicky new contracts plays in to this, if instead of them we released two players that were going to have no impact on the team and bring in two players who can stay fit... though it would still require Wenger to actually rotate them which he probably wouldn't.

Tired players pick up more injuries, true in any sport, true just if you go to the gym and work out. How freaking long will it take Wenger to learn what is extremely common knowledge and how long will Arsenal fans let him ruin the teams chances of being competitive?

 

[drunkenmaster]

How do you know the risk they took with Sanchez was any worse than every team takes with players every week? Maybe Wenger was just unlucky in that he mentioned concerns (when most don't), then something very unlucky happened...

Because every team has an injury crisis now and then, Arsenal have it every single year.

Sanchez had a hamstring problem midweek, we were playing Norwich, not Barcelona, and we had a key period and a huge game in the CL coming up.

Yes, playing Sanchez is a joke, he had no summer off, he's played in every single game in the league and CL for us with no rest.

Ronaldo didn't play a competitive game from May 23rd to August 23rd with a normal summer off. The prem league finished later, May 30th, started earlier, what August 9th or something. Sanchez also played 6 games with Chile from June 11th to July 4th. So while Ronaldo had 3 full months off from competitive games... Sanchez had barely a month. Of that 3 months Ronaldo had probably what 6 weeks was completely off with no training then a proper full slow preseason build up. Sanchez had maybe 2 full weeks off then to be ready for the start of the season completed preseason in 2 weeks rather than 6+ weeks.

Everything literally screams he needs a freaking rest. Tired players pick up more injuries, this is a fact of life. Wenger has spent a year saying Sanchez needs a rest... but refused to give him one. Literally asked why he played Sanchez for the full game midweek again after complaining about him needing a rest Wenger said he gets more tired of he's rested.

The man is an idiot who is completely behind the times now. He consistently plays his favourites every single game with woeful rotation(ie almost never resting players) till they get injured. Some injuries are bad luck, when you have the same injuries every single year because you consistently refuse to rest players while actively acknowledging said player needs a rest you are entirely responsible for it.

I mean he doesn't even say "Sanchez is a beast he doesn't need a rest", which is one thing, he literally goes on an on about the player needing a rest for a year almost every week.... it's pathetic.

I said Coquelin wouldn't be able to play a full season because... he never has. He's barely been used and most players who end up starters in 55+ games a season as a top 4 club does almost always builds up to that level of playing over a period or 3-4 years at least, he didn't have that. He ended up picking up a long term injury and it wasn't surprising at all.

Sanchez being injured, literally everyone said Wenger was being a moron not resting him and he gets the exact injury everyone saw coming. You take risks for some game, CL final, you take the risk with your best player... Norwich.... no chance, unless you're Wenger.

Gave Arteta/Rosicky new contracts.... literally everyone but Wenger knew they'd spend the majority of the season unavailable but Wenger went ahead and gave them new contracts rather than buying younger/uninjured players.

Do I need to mention Kallstrom... the forgotten man, we actively signed a pre-injured player on loan to cover for injuries, because our medical staff is completely incompetent.

 

[drunkenmaster]

I do know, like I said, it was against Norwich. Countless times managers explain their decision to rest a player to the press. Frequently this explanation will be pretty simple, the player has played a lot of games recently, needs a rest and we've got bigger games coming up.

A lot of managers, most probably, would have rested Sanchez precisely because it was a game against Norwich and the Olympiacos game is significantly more important and coming up shortly.

Managers take risks, you can't avoid that or you'd never play anyone. But Sanchez after a hamstring problem against Norwich is a risk 99% of managers wouldn't take.

 

[Trusty]

Thing is though, it's hard to rest players when they want to play. When they are telling you they are fine and the medical team have cleared him to play it's a hard decision to rest a player, especially when they are a crucial memeber of the team. We can still get through this bad spell against Olympiakos and be near the top of the table. Hopefully that'll mean we have a fully fit squad towards the end of the campaign when the real games start..

 

[CliffyG]

You can't really argue with the facts though, Arsenal consistently get injuries to their top players and Wenger never rotates, in fact he rarely, if ever makes subs just because someone could do with a rest. It's not great leap to think the 2 things are linked.

 

[jonneymendoza]

So sack wenger then? that what u want?

 

[CliffyG]

I'm not firmly in that camp, especially as Klopp is not available now but I am getting pretty fed up with rinse and repeat of so many mistakes. This year is our best chance of doing well in the prem for some time and we got 2 points in November! So frustrating and I think some of our problem could have been avoided.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Thing is though, it's hard to rest players when they want to play. When they are telling you they are fine and the medical team have cleared him to play it's a hard decision to rest a player, especially when they are a crucial memeber of the team. We can still get through this bad spell against Olympiakos and be near the top of the table. Hopefully that'll mean we have a fully fit squad towards the end of the campaign when the real games start..

No, it's hard when the manager is a *****, it's not hard when the manager can think beyond just the next game. Manager's priority is the season and as such Wenger ****** us by prioritising the Norwich game over the season as a whole. Sorry but if you can't explain to an adult why missing one game to not miss the next 5 or 20 games you shouldn't be a manager... or an adult.

We should have got Klopp, he was literally perfect for Arsenal, Liverpool playing how Arsenal used to already, more direct, ultra attacking, ultra exciting. He is now what Wenger was till 2005. Not only did we not get him, we let him slip into the hands of what are a major rival.

Every single year Wenger causes player injuries with his "I can't tell him he can't play" BS, yet he can't point to previous injuries and persuade a player it's in their best interest let alone the teams not to play? Ask Sanchez if he wants the number of surgeries, the lack of games and the hard work in rehab that Wilshere or Rosicky go through.... seriously that is hard? nonsense.

EDIT:- the board need to be identifying a manager in Klopp's style/quality and talking Wenger into stepping down if the right manager comes along.

 

[Trusty]

No, it's hard when the manager is a *****, it's not hard when the manager can think beyond just the next game. Manager's priority is the season and as such Wenger ****** us by prioritising the Norwich game over the season as a whole. Sorry but if you can't explain to an adult why missing one game to not miss the next 5 or 20 games you shouldn't be a manager... or an adult.

We should have got Klopp, he was literally perfect for Arsenal, Liverpool playing how Arsenal used to already, more direct, ultra attacking, ultra exciting. He is now what Wenger was till 2005. Not only did we not get him, we let him slip into the hands of what are a major rival.

Every single year Wenger causes player injuries with his "I can't tell him he can't play" BS, yet he can't point to previous injuries and persuade a player it's in their best interest let alone the teams not to play? Ask Sanchez if he wants the number of surgeries, the lack of games and the hard work in rehab that Wilshere or Rosicky go through.... seriously that is hard? nonsense.

EDIT:- the board need to be identifying a manager in Klopp's style/quality and talking Wenger into stepping down if the right manager comes along.

Your proper mad, it's like you forget everything because we get an injury to Sanchez, it could have happened a few weeks ago, it could have happened during the Olympiakos game, it might not of happened at all. It's one of those things that's pretty much impossible to predict. The medical team cleared him, he wanted to play, just play him. You keep mentioning the Wenger of 2005 for some bizarre reason, over the last 10 years Wenger has spent like next to nothing compared to the other big clubs, all whilst moving to a new stadium. . You couldn't have a bigger set of bitter Wenger twisted glasses on if you tried. You never show up when the team plays well, you only show up when Arsenal draw or lose to berate them off. 99% of people would love a club which can compete financially and competively as Arsenal can, all whilst playing wicked football, for some bizarre reason you think youre entilited to better though. We're near the top of the table, we have a chance of getting into the knockouts of the CL. That's good!

If we won the PL, i bet you wouldn't even congratulate the team. I reckon you'd say it should have come 3 years ago or something.

Also, you didn't even want Sanchez at the club...if i remember correctly, you said you would take Di Maria over Sanchez and Ozil combined..

I'll link you again to this, we have Walcott and Kos coming back within the next 10 days. That's 7 injuries in total. City have a huge number of 1st team players out, UTD do also, why do you think Arsenal is so much worse than the other big clubs?

http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/epl_injury_table.php#c1

 

[drunkenmaster]

Walcott is useless, he got a few goals put on a plate for him, missed a bunch of sitters and was absolutely awful for 85+ minutes of every game he played this season.

Number of players out is irrelevant, we're talking about number of players out with over the past decade, number of players who unsurprisingly pick up injuries after Wenger fails to manage the team or have any rest periods for the players who got injured.

Di Maria I said was dramatically over rated and performed literally exactly how I said he would. He's doing 'well' for PSG, in a league with one top team and nothing even remotely close to competition.

We won't win the league with Wenger in charge so it doesn't matter. Many teams have spent dramatically less than Arsenal and achieved more in the past decade having beaten better teams than Arsenal face in the prem league to achieve that. Atletico, Dortmund, Juventus somehow spending way less than Arsenal have beaten Bayern, Barca, Real. Huge money means consistently winning titles, enough money to make you one of the biggest 4 teams in the league with a HUGE gap to 5th and a bigger gap to 6th means Arsenal achieve exactly what they should every year. 4th spend, 4th in the league, nothing more or less. The reality is a great manager would get more out of the squad, Wenger fails to do so, in fact with his near refusal to rotate and constantly letting players like Coquelin rot who by the way would have left Arsenal by now if Wenger had his way after ignoring him for years. The only reason he played was Wenger's awful injury management of Wilshere, his attempt to fix the DM problem by bringing back Flamini who hasn't started over 20 league games since his first year at Milan and has Arteta, both not good at DM and also not fit enough.

The painfully obtuse argument people make when talking about injuries is saying "oh, but club X has more injuries today". Pretty much everyone talks about Wenger and Arsenal as a laughable injury record precisely because it's been going on every single year for a decade now. Every year everyone but Wenger can see where we lack depth, sometimes we have injury prone fullbacks and Wenger was unwilling to improve quality or depth, for 3-4 years it was CB, for 2-3 years now it's been DM. Literally everyone sees it coming but Wenger and it hurts us every single year.

ALl the while he doesn't buy when we do have money, he throws new contracts at Diaby, Rosicky, Arteta, Gibbs, Walcott, players who either again everyone knows will play no major roll due to being sicknotes, not good enough or a combination of both.

There is no manager I can name who would be stupid enough to give Diaby as many contracts as Wenger got, or insist on keeping Arteta/Rosicky rather than letting them leave and buying replacements.

Every single team, regardless of manager, will have good and bad luck years.... the difference is Arsenal are a in a 'bad luck' year all the time.

 

[Trusty]

Arsenal have spent 230mil on players in the past well 3 years(4 summers).... we failed to a get a single player of the quality of Falcao or Di Maria

Sep 2014

You did say Ozil was worth 20m, Sanchez wasn't worth 30m and you'd of had Di Maria over the price of those 2, just can't find it.

Every single team, regardless of manager, will have good and bad luck years.... the difference is Arsenal are a in a 'bad luck' year all the time.

How exactly how Arsenal in a bad luck year every year?

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/pre...ague-tables/premier-league-table-2003-to-date

2003 to date...all whilst moving to a 60,000 stadium. Pool, Chelsea, Spurs, all still stuck in a stadium with 50% less gate recipets every weekend...

And i'm obtuse...

 

[drunkenmaster]

What has that list got to do with injuries and bad or good luck with injuries? Nothing, okay then, that is why you are obtuse. As for the stadium, Arsenal have at no stage ever once had less money since the move. The move strengthened us financially to a huge degree.

If you also don't think luck has any bearing on the transfer market. We got for instance extremely lucky that City were stupid enough to spend that much on Toure, Adebayor and Nasri. Also long term managers(of which there are very few) have far more leeway to buy say a 16yr old and plan for the future. If you take lets say Poch today it's not like he can scout around Europe or improve the youth training of the existing 16yr olds and have them be first team capable 2 years later.

Wenger has been there forever, he hires/fires the staff in the youth setup(that have fundamentally failed to produce over his time there), he has the ability to buy 16-19yr old prospects and bring them into the team for the fraction of the price of a 30-60million 23-28yr old player. He has a significant advantage those other managers haven't had.

Then you have the little issue that Arsenal have dramatically outspent Spurs and Liverpool in wages since 2003. Transfer spend is one part, and in most cases the significantly smaller part of a clubs total spend. We're spending around 200mil a year in wages vs Spurs 100mil... with the same net spend in the transfer market in the past 12 years. Obviously wages have gone up over that period though we were around the 70mil mark in 2003. We've probably spent 700-800mil more than Spurs in that time frame on wages.

This is what Wenger said yesterday on Cazorla:

"He was even booked for diving when his knee let him down, because he could not change direction. He wanted to cut back.

"I don't understand how he carried on. I saw he was not himself, like he was against Spurs and he was dizzy. I could see he was not completely but every time I said Santi are you alright, he said he was OK. He loves so much to play.''

So once again Wenger literally admitting he's an idiot. You can see his knee isn't working, this indicates injury, but because a player loves to play you leave him on most likely worsening said injury. The man is an idiot, he also said his medical staff said Sanchez was in peak fitness because they couldn't find anything. Not everything comes up on a scan or a check, if a player feels something in a muscle and is obviously tired and over worked, the start of a tear can be there but completely not visible on a scan.

Rather than be cautious or sensible knowing precisely how little rest he's had in the past few seasons and a relatively injury hit time at Barcelona(with several hamstring problems) his decision was once again let a players desire be more important than the best decision for the team and for the season. He let Cazorla's desire to stay on over ride the sensible choice to take him off.

 

[Trusty]

I'm lost for words, if you can't see what transfers has on the bearing of the club then theres no point discussing it really. Its quite obvious. If you add up wages and tranfers fees for all the clubs, Arsenal will be around 4th ish...it's only the last few years where they have started spending a larger chunk on certain players. Also, what clubs do bring youth players through in the PL? They do it in Spain and Italy better sure but English sides are all pretty poor.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/10058264/hold-hold-hold

recent article on youth setups, in case you missed it.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Yea so Dm. Still want Wenger sacked?

 

[CliffyG]

I don't think yesterday's game will change anything. We were lucky to come out of that game with points.

 

[jonneymendoza]

I don't think yesterday's game will change anything. We were lucky to come out of that game with points.

But then again we was very unlucky to lose against west brom

 

[Danthus]

I'm lost for words, if you can't see what transfers has on the bearing of the club then theres no point discussing it really. Its quite obvious. If you add up wages and tranfers fees for all the clubs, Arsenal will be around 4th ish...it's only the last few years where they have started spending a larger chunk on certain players. Also, what clubs do bring youth players through in the PL? They do it in Spain and Italy better sure but English sides are all pretty poor.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/10058264/hold-hold-hold

recent article on youth setups, in case you missed it.

We have got two Swansea players at Crewe, one of them is a bit.

 

[drunkenmaster]

I'm lost for words, if you can't see what transfers has on the bearing of the club then theres no point discussing it really. Its quite obvious. If you add up wages and tranfers fees for all the clubs, Arsenal will be around 4th ish...it's only the last few years where they have started spending a larger chunk on certain players. Also, what clubs do bring youth players through in the PL? They do it in Spain and Italy better sure but English sides are all pretty poor.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/10058264/hold-hold-hold

recent article on youth setups, in case you missed it.

Again I'm lost for words at the relevance.

You specifically cited the list of transfer spending as evidence against my argument about bad luck. I was clear as day talking about bad luck in regards to injuries. Your rambling about something entirely unlinked to injuries is still entirely irrelevant when talking specifically about injuries. This is precisely why I asked what relevance that had to bad luck (and obviously not just being bad luck) with injuries... the answer is none.

As for spending more, again, I think I made a bunch of points, the longer you're in a job the more room you have to buy younger and cheaper for the future thus saving pretty much hundreds of millions. You managed to also ignore that we've spent well over half a billion more than Spurs since 2003.

Transfer fees in isolation are pretty meaningless.

Two top players are available, one costs £25mil, one is at the end of his contract. Because you can afford to give one 100k a week, you can persuade him to wait out his contract and sign for a higher wage, thus saving you loads of money. We snap up that player while Spurs who can't afford those wages have less options and buy the other guy for £25million.

Arsenal have dramatically higher ability to spend on wages than those clubs below us and as above we have the ability to spend on a 17yr old and wait(while also usually offering more money than others are willing to as in Cesc's case). When Poch takes over at Spurs, if he doesn't buy mostly for the here and now results don't improve and he gets fired. Meaning he can't buy 5 17yr olds and wait for them to come good 3 years later, he won't be in a job. That means a new manager mostly has to buy a £10-30mil 20-25yr old rather than the same player 3 years earlier at 1/10th the price.

Wenger has absolutely every advantage possible by being there in the long term. Almost any manager in the same situation should save a lot of money doing this.

As for that list, Bellerin, Coquelin, Gnabry, this is precisely my point, he's buying players at 16-17 that other managers can't afford to buy because they have to build a team in the first 1-2 years they start at a new club. Gnabry isn't close to good enough, neither were any of the youngsters given a chance in the past 2-3 years. Coquelin finally 'broke through' at the age of what 23 or 24 after Wenger all but ignored him for 6 years. Bellerin was being ignored and on his way out in favour of Sagna, then Debuchy/Chambers. Coquelin and Bellerin are only still at the club this season because Wenger broke everyone else in their positions and was forced to give them a chance he was otherwise completely unwilling to give to them.

That would leave 3 on the list who played a significant number of games for Arsenal before last year and Gibbs as a full back can't defend and is a complete sicknote. 8 seasons he's been in the first team squad, he's averaged 14 games a season in the league, between being not good enough of injured.

 

[Trusty]

Again I'm lost for words at the relevance.

You specifically cited the list of transfer spending as evidence against my argument about bad luck. I was clear as day talking about bad luck in regards to injuries. Your rambling about something entirely unlinked to injuries is still entirely irrelevant when talking specifically about injuries. This is precisely why I asked what relevance that had to bad luck (and obviously not just being bad luck) with injuries... the answer is none.

As for spending more, again, I think I made a bunch of points, the longer you're in a job the more room you have to buy younger and cheaper for the future thus saving pretty much hundreds of millions. You managed to also ignore that we've spent well over half a billion more than Spurs since 2003.

Transfer fees in isolation are pretty meaningless.

Two top players are available, one costs £25mil, one is at the end of his contract. Because you can afford to give one 100k a week, you can persuade him to wait out his contract and sign for a higher wage, thus saving you loads of money. We snap up that player while Spurs who can't afford those wages have less options and buy the other guy for £25million.

Arsenal have dramatically higher ability to spend on wages than those clubs below us and as above we have the ability to spend on a 17yr old and wait(while also usually offering more money than others are willing to as in Cesc's case). When Poch takes over at Spurs, if he doesn't buy mostly for the here and now results don't improve and he gets fired. Meaning he can't buy 5 17yr olds and wait for them to come good 3 years later, he won't be in a job. That means a new manager mostly has to buy a £10-30mil 20-25yr old rather than the same player 3 years earlier at 1/10th the price.

Wenger has absolutely every advantage possible by being there in the long term. Almost any manager in the same situation should save a lot of money doing this.

As for that list, Bellerin, Coquelin, Gnabry, this is precisely my point, he's buying players at 16-17 that other managers can't afford to buy because they have to build a team in the first 1-2 years they start at a new club. Gnabry isn't close to good enough, neither were any of the youngsters given a chance in the past 2-3 years. Coquelin finally 'broke through' at the age of what 23 or 24 after Wenger all but ignored him for 6 years. Bellerin was being ignored and on his way out in favour of Sagna, then Debuchy/Chambers. Coquelin and Bellerin are only still at the club this season because Wenger broke everyone else in their positions and was forced to give them a chance he was otherwise completely unwilling to give to them.

That would leave 3 on the list who played a significant number of games for Arsenal before last year and Gibbs as a full back can't defend and is a complete sicknote. 8 seasons he's been in the first team squad, he's averaged 14 games a season in the league, between being not good enough of injured.

Can you not see how transfers has on the squad depth? Really? I'd of thought that was pretty obvious. It's funny how your comparing to Spurs all the time and not the other big clubs who were competing against. Arsenal are a top 4 side so you should compare them with UTD, City and Chelsea. How much less has Wenger spent then? Suddenly it looks a whole lot different. And again, i just linked you to an article regarding youth players becuase you said Wenger was terrible at it, i proved you wrong with Arsenal being top of the table and it's still not good enough. Goes back to the whole "you wouldn't congratulate the team if they won the PL" Arsenal are top of the table when bringing youth through the club but it's still not good enough, how many should be there? 12, 15, 20? Why do you only show up when Arsenal lose btw? Didn't see anything from you when we beat Sunderland..