Salary of tube and train drivers - why so high?

[Hawkwind1879]

At last a driver!! this thread has been exhausting lol. I'm a Signaller mate, so got a lot of respect for you guys, interesting to read your inputs

 

[I_M_Weasel]

They have learned that they are indispensable and have continuously used strikes or the threat of strikes to gain pay awards. Their pay has grown so high that they could now withstand very lengthy industrial action and as their pay rises they gain more and more resources to gain better and better pay deals.

They are on a great deal, tfl must know they are paying well over the odds but don't seem to have any leverage, quite the opposite - they are at the drivers mercy.

The miners ran the same tactics but were undone by there own over production that had created vast stockpiles and north sea gas, this meant there was an alternative and the miners could be ignored. No viable alternative exists for the tube and while that remains the case, drivers will be well paid.

Good luck to em, I suppose, but their wages are paid by someone - the customer.

 

[dbmzk1]

It's a reasonably simple and boring job that a computer could do easily.

The only reason they have a high salary, or even still have a job in the first place, is unions.

 

[David_VI]

At last a driver!! this thread has been exhausting lol. I'm a Signaller mate, so got a lot of respect for you guys, interesting to read your inputs

Ah hello arch enemy haha. I respect you guys, your knowledge of the rules is just as good if not better than drivers

What area do you work?
You guys just click a mouse now eh? (haha I'm not helping here am I?)

Ok so if we set aside train drivers for the moment.....would you consider tube drivers overpaid, as judging from what you say quite a lot of what you do does not apply to them? And assuming the article linked above isn't inaccurate it is up to 16 weeks training.

I don't understand the huge gaps in pay between tube and mainline. I can only assume they negotiated that like we did and they got it because they are valued. I know most of the tube is above ground but more of it is underground than the national rail network and I imagine that's pretty monotonous. I can't deny unions do help, but that doesn't mean drivers of any sort are 'overpaid'.

I really don't know how to answer to be honest, I kinda hate the term 'overpaid'. I'd say most jobs are underpaid.

 

[Hawkwind1879]

Ah hello arch enemy haha. I respect you guys, your knowledge of the rules is just as good if not better than drivers

What area do you work?
You guys just click a mouse now eh? (haha I'm not helping here am I?)

Arch enemy only if i've stopped you at too many Signals lol.

Im in the South West, im in a little NX panel box with buttons. Was lucky to train in absolute block but boy that was over complicated. Im lucky in that i still get to see drivers go past and wave and if im lucky toot toot of their horn

Where are you based? little reluctant to give an exact location, as our companies both have a ferocius social media policy

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Arch enemy only if i've stopped you at too many Signals lol.

Im in the South West, im in a little NX panel box with buttons. Was lucky to train in absolute block but boy that was over complicated. Im lucky in that i still get to see drivers go past and wave and if im lucky toot toot of their horn

Where are you based? little reluctant to give an exact location, as our companies both have a ferocius social media policy

I've sent a HST from Kings Cross to Peterborough when I was in Kings Cross power box.

Also sent a fair few trains from Preston > Lancaster while in Preston power box.

The job can't be that hard if a 9 yr old can do it

Spoiler

My 7 yr old sister was pretty good at it as well!

Spoiler

I really don't know how to answer to be honest, I kinda hate the term 'overpaid'. I'd say most jobs are underpaid.

I think this is the key. Most people don't want to fight for better wages, so rather than try, they want to drag others down to their level.

 

[Hawkwind1879]

I've sent a HST from Kings Cross to Peterborough when I was in Kings Cross power box.

Also sent a fair few trains from Preston > Lancaster while in Preston power box.

The job can't be that hard if a 9 yr old can do it

Spoiler

My 7 yr old sister was pretty good at it as well!

Spoiler

Shhhhh dont encourage them

Those pictures are great a lot of historic value keep them safe . Im guesssing those boxes have gone to a ROC now?

 

[Freefaller]

I don't really care about the pay as it's not enough to get a lot of people to do it, and it's not THAT much really in the grand scheme of things.

What I do think is unfair is the fact equally (arguably more) critical roles such as nurses, firemen and so on are not paid anywhere near as much for roles which are more challenging.

I do know about trains and so on as I work in infrastructure, albeit building it, but I understand the complexities of signalling systems, and safety and all that stuff. I've used the training simulators, yes there's a lot to learn, but no more than learning any other skill or trade.

Ultimately it is down to the militant unions. That said, I think tube drivers do deserve a reasonable wage for the antisocial hours, and the most unsatisfying job I could imagine doing. Fair pay is absolutely beyond reproach., however their pay really IS disproportionate, of that there is no argument.

 

[redrabbit29]

That includes, shift work and weekend work. £60k would be about right for me to do that

Really?

New Police Officers start off on around £19'000 and do 24 hour working shifts. Obviously the job satisfaction would be 100x greater I'd imagine, rather than just driving up a line of track..... and back down.

Same could be said for Nurses and NHS staff in general

I'm surprised you seem to imply £60k is simply a basic expectation when you work shifts and weekends.

I know their union is incredibly strong and powerful (I'm sure the Underground customers and Southern Rail customers can vouch for this). They strike continually and don't take any nonsense. That's why you can only apply internally, as the union stopped the companies advertising straight to external people for lesser amounts.

 

[David_VI]

Arch enemy only if i've stopped you at too many Signals lol.

Im in the South West, im in a little NX panel box with buttons. Was lucky to train in absolute block but boy that was over complicated. Im lucky in that i still get to see drivers go past and wave and if im lucky toot toot of their horn

Where are you based? little reluctant to give an exact location, as our companies both have a ferocius social media policy

I understand the role of signallers but still it gets frustrating when you're suddenly on a cautionary aspect and pulling upto a red for it to clear last second because the signaller has forgotten about you and got the barriers down at a crossing a bit late Oh and the routing freight out in front of you.

What's an NX panel box?

My area is East Anglia which only really covers two TOCs, probably obvious which one I work for .
I learnt absolute block (as a driver) but I don't actually sign anywhere that uses it although some drivers at my depot do, I struggled getting my head around it! I suppose this is relevant to the thread, learning so much stuff you may never use!
Most of my routes are controlled by a power signal box with lots of panels in although there are at least two locations we have a lone box with a signaller who will wave
We have a ROC now but none of the boxes have moved into it, just Network Rail and our controllers.

So as a signaller you have to know the 15 (now 16) reasons to pass a signal at danger? One of the banes of most drivers existence during training (that and wrong direction moves)

 

[David_VI]

I've sent a HST from Kings Cross to Peterborough when I was in Kings Cross power box.

Also sent a fair few trains from Preston > Lancaster while in Preston power box.

The job can't be that hard if a 9 yr old can do it

Spoiler

My 7 yr old sister was pretty good at it as well!

Spoiler

I think this is the key. Most people don't want to fight for better wages, so rather than try, they want to drag others down to their level.

Those are awesome pictures. The local box to me still has panels like that with some areas being the newer computer systems. Got to visit it during training and was fascinating!

 

[Sasahara]

I think it's a better comparison then to buses. Obvioysly not comparing it to being a pilot, but more the processes and protocols etc. Not being funny but everyone thinks they can compare buses to something they don't know anything about why can't I.?

A year at least to train a train drIver. Train could travel up to 120mph with up to 1000 passengers on board compared to a coach.

If there is an emergency on board it cannot just pull over on the side of the road. Your on the operational railway next running line could also be up to 120mph, that's great if your passengers are disembarking.

A bus or coach your driving line if sight. Train driver driving partly from route knowledge at 120mph it just does not even compare, at night, or fog

You do know when a train is travelling at 120 MPH the driver has minimal safety effect, if something goes wrong on the track ahead it just break and hope.

A friend of a friend used to work on the underground, but moved to overground with a pay cut. And he says the overground was harder due to a lot more awkward signals. (I guess that would be depending on where you were based)
The hardest part on the underground was keeping awake/concentration.

The easiest way to work out how hard something is it how hard technically is it to replace the human element, and the underground is far easier than road and air travel(take off/landing) to replace the human element.

As for the argument that everyone is under paid, if everyone get paid what they are "worth", inflation goes up and those wages will be worth the same or very similar to what they were before, no real gain.

If it wasn't a virtual monopoly you can bet the wages would be a lot lower.

The suicide argument is a joke, you can bet the people having to scrape up the remains are getting paid a lot less than the drivers. :< (Also the driver automatically get time off if they are involved in such an indecent)

The training is 22 weeks, the hardest part isn't the training as such, but competing again all the other applicants, a lot get booted out early on and the cream get selected. But if it wasn't a closed shop you could get even better drivers. But the Unions only use "Safety Issues" when it suits them.

 

[dowie]

I can't deny unions do help, but that doesn't mean drivers of any sort are 'overpaid'.

well it sort of does... it is a relative term, they're overpaid relative to other drivers (commuter trains, busses etc..)

I really don't know how to answer to be honest, I kinda hate the term 'overpaid'. I'd say most jobs are underpaid.

not sure about that either, 'most jobs' ought to be the benchmark - otherwise what are you using as a comparison from which to say someone is over or under paid?

 

[Energize]

Train drivers are paid what they are worth as that's how capitalism works.

No offence but this comment is beyond naive.

In a free market, supply and demand determines an employees salary, that is how a proper capitalist system works. The situation here is anything but capitalism, the actual "worth" of a tube driver in a free market is far far less than what they are currently paid.

 

[Tefal]

No offence but this comment is beyond naive.

In a free market, supply and demand determines an employees salary, that is how a proper capitalist system works. The situation here is anything but capitalism, the actual "worth" of a tube driver in a free market is far far less than what they are currently paid.

the union controls supply though by restricting training.

Capitalism does alow for artificially ******* with supply, just look at opec.

 

[David_VI]

the union controls supply though by restricting training.

Capitalism does alow for artificially ******* with supply, just look at opec.

What's your source for this? ASLEF restrict training? My company is taking on drivers at a high rate at the moment. We've been understaffed with regards to drivers because the company believed we could get away with less drivers, not the union, the union has been fighting for more drivers so we can actually get our time off! It's the company/government who wants to cut costs, haven't you seen this with Southern and their lack of drivers? Relying on overtime.

well it sort of does... it is a relative term, they're overpaid relative to other drivers (commuter trains, busses etc..)



not sure about that either, 'most jobs' ought to be the benchmark - otherwise what are you using as a comparison from which to say someone is over or under paid?

Fair enough I suppose, using the term overpaid literally, I can't really argue with that.

You do know when a train is travelling at 120 MPH the driver has minimal safety effect, if something goes wrong on the track ahead it just break and hope.

A friend of a friend used to work on the underground, but moved to overground with a pay cut. And he says the overground was harder due to a lot more awkward signals. (I guess that would be depending on where you were based)
The hardest part on the underground was keeping awake/concentration.

The easiest way to work out how hard something is it how hard technically is it to replace the human element, and the underground is far easier than road and air travel(take off/landing) to replace the human element.

As for the argument that everyone is under paid, if everyone get paid what they are "worth", inflation goes up and those wages will be worth the same or very similar to what they were before, no real gain.

If it wasn't a virtual monopoly you can bet the wages would be a lot lower.

The suicide argument is a joke, you can bet the people having to scrape up the remains are getting paid a lot less than the drivers. :< (Also the driver automatically get time off if they are involved in such an indecent)

The training is 22 weeks, the hardest part isn't the training as such, but competing again all the other applicants, a lot get booted out early on and the cream get selected. But if it wasn't a closed shop you could get even better drivers. But the Unions only use "Safety Issues" when it suits them.

Training varies and is often seen as hard because a lot of applicants are people who had a change of career and haven't been in education for a long time, so sitting in a classroom for months and having to remember such rules is seen as quite a challenge. Then you have the actual learning of the job, which in my company is 225hours with an instructor in which you have to take in A LOT if information while also retaining all the theory and rules you learnt in the classroom.


I was always told by my manager the reason we're paid so much is becuse of the responsibility, I don't know many industries who are responsible for so many people at one time. When I take a 12 car train into London in the peak i'm the sole person responsible for around a 1000 people's safety, no guard, just me. I have to be able to recall rules and procedures and make decisions that could have a huge impact in the heat of a moment.

You forget that a train travelling at 120mph has to stop at some point. Making that judgement, in whatever weather condition, while keeping to time and maintaining safety is a skill.

A lot of the pay in my opinion relates to the highly unsociable shifts, the monotony of the job and concentration required for long periods while also retaining a lot of rules and procedures.

 

[Tefal]

What's your source for this? ASLEF restrict training?

i was refering to the TUBE not normal trains.

the tube union will only let existing employees be trained to be train drivers

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...e-a-Tube-driver-Well-you-cant.-Heres-why.html

which means they have to try and find station attendants, ticket booth operators etc who they can train rather than just going out and you kn ow recruiting train drivers like any other company would.


imagine if we said doctors could only be trained from existing nhs staff.

 

[David_VI]

i was refering to the TUBE not normal trains.

the tube union will only let existing employees be trained to be train drivers

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...e-a-Tube-driver-Well-you-cant.-Heres-why.html

which means they have to try and find station attendants, ticket booth operators etc who they can train rather than just going out and you kn ow recruiting train drivers like any other company would.


imagine if we said doctors could only be trained from existing nhs staff.

Okay fair point. I see pros and cons to that personally.

I didn't know it was like that on the tube, could have sworn they advertised externally

 

[Energize]

the union controls supply though by restricting training.

Capitalism does alow for artificially ******* with supply, just look at opec.

Monopolies/oligopolies only persist due to government interference in the market ultimately.

Unions such as this again, can only run the way they do with government interference. Under true free market trade such conditions could not exist. If employers were allowed to fire workers who bunk off work (strike) do you think we would have the current situation with tube drivers?

 

[robgmun]

It's not the same as other jobs though. As a driver they are responsible for hundreds of lives. They screw up and things can go horribly wrong very quickly. They need 100% attention all of the time, have to learn the route such as where every signal is, where every speed change is, where every change in gradient is. They cannot afford to be distracted and I think they get a very deserving salary.

responsibility for one. several hundreds of tonnes travelling at 70mph can end badly.

Automated system like DLR would be better cheaper and would never go on strike haha

So they're still peddling this myth? aren't most tube lines semi-automated, and all they do is open and close the doors? I know that's the case for at least the Central and Jubilee Line