salary prospects

[NickK]

oh wow, not that can of worms again!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debates_within_software_engineering#Right_to_use_the_word_engineering

My degree is: BSc (Hons) Software Engineering. So I can tell you precisely what the difference is between computer science and software engineering is.

They share many of the same areas (even course modules) but their goals differ:
Computer Science - study of new technology and the application of computers to new areas.
Software Engineering - study on the production of software in a commercial context.

So for example we would study meta software methodologies, quality systems, compare languages as well as software development.

We, as SE, had a mandatory modules in formal methods & Z from the first year right through to the fourth. It would involve Hazop and proving concurrency systems and requirements modelling formally. Again our Quality modules and management of the engineering process were mandatory.
The CompSci guys did these in the first year but then these modules became optional. They had modules that became mandatory instead.

I did Software Engineering with my optional modules on Numerical Computation, Networks and Distributed/Parallel systems.

In short when I left Uni, I knew I was awesome and far better than any Computer Science grad

It's a pain that SE isn't officially recognised as it get lumped in with CompSci for job interviews.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Good link mr^b - that does the rounds here a few times a year as well - and it's normally us telling the Data Engineers they aren't engineers

My degree is: BSc (Hons) Software Engineering. So I can tell you precisely what the difference is between computer science and software engineering is.

snip!

You see - this is exactly the training I've had the years I've worked here. If he's a S/W engineer, then I'm a S/W engine - despite the fact I don't have a bit of paper to prove it.

I'll admit though, I may not be doing the traditional SE role but I still am an SE.

At the end of the day, a man in a womans dress is still a man

Shall we come to a comprimise with TWFox and NathanE - I'm a software engineer doing a technicians role for 20% of the time?

 

[nero120]

Did she then say "only joking, egg face"

I had something similar last week as part of our "Winners Scheme". Some vouchers of my choice up to £50.

Lol yeah I half expected her too. Just couldn't believe that a manager would recognise and reward someone for working hard - I may have to re-evaluate my stereotypes!

 

[[TW]Fox]

Good link mr^b - that does the rounds here a few times a year as well - and it's normally us telling the Data Engineers they aren't engineers

If you were an engineer you'd be earning a lot more money, so I think thats case closed. Job title engineering for the lose

Disclaimer: I am not and never will be an engineer but I feel they are hugely undervalued by people (although to be fair its usually the employer) misusing the title to make people feel important.

 

[NickK]

In the industry we call them "code monkeys"

The Monkey Tree!

 

[NickK]

At the end of the day, a man in a womans dress is still a man

I know nothing about that. I moved out of engineering into product management in 2005 and joyfully not touched a line of code since!

 

[-Ad-]

An engineer *designs* something from scratch. He is in more of a maintenance role.

Common mistake, engineers arn't just designers

If so then I clearly should have been fired a long time ago.

Oil does look good fun. I'm sure there was a guy on here who posted regular updates and at one stage had to light some waste burning/flue with a shotgun of sorts. 2/3 weeks on then 2 weeks off sounds great

 

[NickK]

2/3 weeks on then 2 weeks off sounds great

Not with a relationship or young family. It's got a seriously high rate of family relationship problems.

 

[Mr^B]

My degree is: BSc (Hons) Software Engineering. So I can tell you precisely what the difference is between computer science and software engineering is.

They share many of the same areas (even course modules) but their goals differ:
Computer Science - study of new technology and the application of computers to new areas.
Software Engineering - study on the product of software in a commercial context.

So for example we would study meta software methodologies, quality systems, compare languages as well as software development.

We, as SE, had a mandatory modules in formal methods & Z from the first year right through to the fourth. It would involve Hazop and proving concurrency systems and requirements modelling formally. Again our Quality modules and management of the engineering process were mandatory.
The CompSci guys did these in the first year but then these modules became optional. They had modules that became mandatory instead.

I did Software Engineering with my optional modules on Numerical Computation, Networks and Distributed/Parallel systems.

In short when I left Uni, I knew I was awesome and far better than any Computer Science grad

It's a pain that SE isn't officially recognised as it get lumped in with CompSci for job interviews.

I had mandatory formal methods and z-notation modules from 1st to 4th year too - but s/w engineer is nowhere near my title, nor the title of the degree (BA Systems Analysis)

Many Comp Sci degrees cover exactly what you outline for your engineering degree. And that's the point. The line HAS BEEN blurred, there's nothing you can do to get it back again. Comp Sci and S/W Engineers ARE perceived as one and the same.

It's as fruitless to argue against as my ongoing campaign to regain the correct use of the word "methodology" - the original meaning is clear (the study of method) - it's frequent mis-use has given it a new meaning (an organised framework of methods).

I'd suggest taking the argument off-line, as it'll just end in tears!

 

[NickK]

Some of my friends who have completed their PhD or even with just a Masters are working towards the 100K CHF a year salaries. And non of them do any investment banking type jobs. Thats getting to £60K pa with 2-3 years experience.

I would suspect that they're permanently "On the job" but that's not surprising for jobs over about £50K as you enter the "married to the job" zone.

 

[NickK]

I'd suggest taking the argument off-line, as it'll just end in tears!

Agreed; qualifications play very little once you get to interviews.

I've had people in to interview that were qualified up to their eyeballs but couldn't answer basic questions.

 

[kiteloopy]

The contract market (specifically IT/Finance) at the moment is soaring.

combine the 2 sectors together and you've got big increases. Ive just started a 1st line role at a leading high street bank, and we have just employed about 50 new staff just for 1st line. albeit permanent staff, but also contractors in other buildings. exciting times tbh.

back on topic:

the only grad scheme with massive pay that I know is accenture as stated previously. others are low-mid 20s', ive applied to loads of them.
But im on the same pay as grads and really good career prospects (and can still apply for the scheme next year):

so im happy as larry.

 

[NathanE]

Agreed; qualifications play very little once you get to interviews.

I've had people in to interview that were qualified up to their eyeballs but couldn't answer basic questions.

Exactly. Every company has different standards; and that's fine.

 

[Ev0]

Or do what I did in my contract interview, basically told them their current setup was rubbish and I'd have to redo it the right way. They were on the phone to the recruitment people saying they wanted me before I got out the building

If you were an engineer you'd be earning a lot more money, so I think thats case closed. Job title engineering for the lose

Disclaimer: I am not and never will be an engineer but I feel they are hugely undervalued by people (although to be fair its usually the employer) misusing the title to make people feel important.

See I have an engineering degree, my job title has engineer in it, however it most certainly shouldn't do really imho.

Oh and I know I've said it before but our trainees start on 21k which goes up to 30k in 3 years but that's not a grad scheme, the last chap was a 20 year old who used to sell Hyundais.

 

[londonbairn]

There are loads of 30K+ starting positions here in the City. The art is jumping ship at the right time and building good contacts across industry, then you'll find your level and salary jumps up very well (I work in commodities)

 

[Richdog]

Since I started in IT for a small-time, two-bit IT software company i've managed to land on my feet and increase my salary by around £28k in 3.5 years. I had to take a gamble and move to another country to do it, but it still feels nice when I wake up in the morning and consider my life now vs when I started.

 

[-Ad-]

Not with a relationship or young family. It's got a seriously high rate of family relationship problems.

I'm lucky to have a gf that wants to enjoy her career and life for a while yet, and isn't even considering sprogs.

But I can see why, especially as those 2 weeks on will be non-stop work then solid sleep, repeat x13. No contact for wife and kids.

building good contacts across industry

This is just soo important. I think something like 45% of jobs taken in my sector are through contacts, positions created for you, recommendations from managers etc.

 

[londonbairn]

This is just soo important. I think something like 45% of jobs taken in my sector are through contacts, positions created for you, recommendations from managers etc.

Yeah, I am of the firm belief that you prove your worth then ask for something. Too many people come in and say at the start "I wanna be a trader" rather than showing their worth then asking and being able to back up why they want to be one...

 

[lambda]

I totally agree with the abuse of the engineer title. It should be protected, like Dr, so monkeys that didn't work hard enough or are too stupid to get qualifications can't use the title. I really feel bad for the real engineers, as I know how hard they work.

Engineering degrees are as hard as maths/medicine, but get no recognition.

 

[dangerstat]

Engineering degrees are as hard as maths/medicine, but get no recognition.

Riiiiiggggghhhhtttttttttt

The only difference I've ever found between SE grads vs CS grads is the later seem a little less easy to integrate into projects straight from uni.

A lot of SE types **** me off, with worrying about very small detail, causing massive delays in projects when it could have been done to the same standard they're advocating if they just stopped having meetings to discuss user case documents and actually did their bloody job