Yup. That's the problem with locking or deleting threads dedicated to certain subjects, it allows repetitious discussions to continue over and over spilling into, sometimes completely unrelated, threads.
It becomes tiresome to continually refute the same ignorance, unfortunately allowing the passionately hateful a permanent platform.
How many Islam-bashing Muslim gang rape threads have there been? Great points were made through the early discussions but lock after lock they just become an ignorant mess for borderline racists, as people like myself give up trying to give the same response.
Same with threads on race, intact the eradicating racial discrimination thread in SC would have been perfect to keep open as it contained discussion on topic, but unfortunately got overrun (whilst I was suspended) by the same ignorance we see in this thread and simply locked. Instead of locking it, the abusers should have been warned or suspended, that way this discussion could have simply been moved into that thread allowing people to keep their ignorance in one place and rebuttals on the same points would have been easier to direct posters to.
Correct, ones a pshycopath almost certainly acting alone, the other by the sounds of it is a conspiracy of 2-4 men to commit murder irrespective if they shot the wrong person. I tend to think the later is worse as to find 2-4 like minded people happy to shoot up a party/murder means there's more wrong given multiple people all agreeing its OK to murder/attempt murder seems to indicate a culture of that being OK.
Its a culture issue, not a race issue although they are invariably linked.
Well that's all purely subjective and you're more than entitled to your opinion, personally I find the police officer acting alone to be worse, but maybe that's an extension of your point about murder being normalised (hate that word). Gang violence is common and I'd say i'm increasingly desensitised to it, a police officer kidnapping and murdering a woman walking home is a much bigger headline.
Saying it's a culture issue is mostly fine (although it's a convenient way to avoid directly accusing a race) but you've got to be specific about what culture you're referring to and how you believe this has come about.
To be direct, some aspects of black culture which includes grime/drill which in turn includes many references to guns, drugs, get rich quick has lead to this "culture issue". Its not to say its exclusive to black culture anymore as rap and its various forms are now mainstream so of course there's white and asian into this cuture too but its driven by mainsteam acceptance of youth culture that isn't harmless anymore unlike most generational music in previous era's.
Before you say music doesn't affect people actions, take a look back through the decades at music and the youth culture that followed it, 1960's hippys, 1970s rock, Punk, 80s pop etc and you'll see the youth of the time was very into those, dressing, looking and acting like their musical "heros" went hand in hand except none of those glorfied illegal activities to any major degree.
What isn't exclusive to black culture anymore and when was it exclusive?
Music is a tricky one, you quickly get into a 'think of the children' mindset when discussing it and it's influence. I can't pretend I've thought about it deeply, but music and society are linked in a way that means there's a back and forth between society influencing the music and music influencing the society. I'm not the biggest fan of drill, I'm a born and raised grime kid, grime had similar discussions surrounding it too when it started to creep into the mainstream. For me, drill is simply a reflection of the reality facing young people from a certain background, its heavily influenced by grime and the US equivalent, but it's modernised and reflects the level of violence we see on the streets today.
Yup. That's the problem with locking or deleting threads dedicated to certain subjects, it allows repetitious discussions to continue over and over spilling into, sometimes completely unrelated, threads.
It becomes tiresome to continually refute the same ignorance, unfortunately allowing the passionately hateful a permanent platform.
How many Islam-bashing Muslim gang rape threads have there been? Great points were made through the early discussions but lock after lock they just become an ignorant mess for borderline racists, as people like myself give up trying to give the same response.
Same with threads on race, intact the eradicating racial discrimination thread in SC would have been perfect to keep open as it contained discussion on topic, but unfortunately got overrun (whilst I was suspended) by the same ignorance we see in this thread and simply locked. Instead of locking it, the abusers should have been warned or suspended, that way this discussion could have simply been moved into that thread allowing people to keep their ignorance in one place and rebuttals on the same points would have been easier to direct posters to.
Conversely with the policeman murder you can safely bet if he had tried to talk to his mates (police or not) and get them in involved in his plan (if it was planned), he'd have been in the cells very quickly.
Pretty sure he had a citizen file a report against him weeks beforehand and the met is being investigated about the handling of that allegation. But it's an ongoing case so details are limited and there's no point speculating (as I'm doing) just to try and push an argument.
Maybe its down to your music tastes as I'm not desanitised to the number of gang related murders that seem to occur almost every day in the UK these days but then I dislike most rap and couldn't name a single grim/drill rapper nevermind think of them as someone to look up to. I can however name many black artists of earlier eras (1950s to 2000's) I still listen to who created [imho] much better music, much more talented and tended to sing about many things not only love but almost never drugs, guns, violence etc Prince, Stevie Wonder, MJ, Isley Brothers, Earth Wind and Fire to name just a few.
Haha not at all, like I said I've grown up with grime and it's only recently I've become somewhat desensitised, but that's more to do with my location (Camden, London) and the fact a trip to the big sainsburys involves walking past several flower memorials to victims of gang violence. I also follow my local police on twitter and see all the jobs they tackle including finding machetes and knives in gardens and bushes around the area.
Different strokes for different folks, I've grown up listening to violent music about guns, drugs and violence, and yeah at times I have looked up to some artists (not because of their gang life days) but I've never had any issues with the law.
OK the song isn't really drill and both artists are more on the grime side but the things you're mentioning they mention too:
What I wouldn't do today, who said I wouldn't do tomorrow?
The problem ain't following, it's what you choose to follow
What is we chose to follow all the things we used to follow
Spoke about sex less
Normalise death less
Obsess less
Over capital and excess
Took drugs less
Frowned on love less
Little Bo Peep must sleep forever more
We feel but don't grieve
We grieve but never mourn
We look but never see
We see but never more
The role models are suffering, tell them that there's a war outside
Tell them that there's a war outside
I'd actually encourage anyone who talks about what they think drill/grime culture is to actually go and listen to some of the older heads of the scene and listen to what they say. Kano and Ghetts' latest albums especially.
Perhaps its come about as partly due to deep rooted tribal tendancies which in the modern world may translate to gangs, just look at Africa, we think we have it bad here and in the US but its nothing compared to the violence in most parts of Africa, much of that is religious but much is tribal and black on black violence more often than not.
Got to be careful when talking about black people, africa, and crime when referring to tribal tendencies ...
Africa is also a big place, there's plenty of parts in the UK and US that will have you questioning who the 3rd world countries actually are. Regardless, not sure how this is relevant.
That highlighted section is part of the problem, its reflecting violence to a wider audience and normalising it which in turn I'm convinced leads to more violence.
And that's the think of the children line being approached, violence is spread to a wider audience through drill music, I wouldn't disagree with that. But what makes drill music cause/normalise violence and not, violent video games/movies/tv shows/24 hour newsreel etc.
So the problem is not that someone is black, asian or white, its their lifestyle/culture which we're being told we (as in whites) must respect but how can I respect certain aspects of a youth (mainly) culture that to all intents an purposes isn't civilised anymore than I cannot respect certain religious cultures, cultures from 50-2000+ years ago, the Nazi culture etc.
In short, we need to separate colour/race (which can't be changed) from culture which can be changed, no single culture is perfect but some are closer to the ideal than others.
White people are being asked to respect gang and violent cultures?
I'd agree that race/colour and culture need to be unlinked, the problem is too many people in this country and this thread (not necessarily currently posting about it) hold views of what they think (for example) 'Jamaican' culture is and deliberately link race, colour and culture.
On this talk about black music - I actually think the music is a result of culture and not the cause.
Also look back at black music during the 70's and 80s it is all very happy upbeat and positive during a time where they unfortunately had to deal with very real racism everywhere on a daily basis.
Strangely things started to go the other way in the 90s, when society generally started to become less racist as a whole.
Jump forward to now and we have probably the most violent music in drill, at a time where overall society is actually a lot less racist but unfortunately these kids have be brought up being told how the whole system is against them.
On this talk about black music - I actually think the music is a result of culture and not the cause.
Also look back at black music during the 70's and 80s it is all very happy upbeat and positive during a time where they unfortunately had to deal with very real racism everywhere on a daily basis.
Strangely things started to go the other way in the 90s, when society generally started to become less racist as a whole.
Jump forward to now and we have probably the most violent music in drill, at a time where overall society is actually a lot less racist but unfortunately these kids have be brought up being told how the whole system is against them.
Persecution helped that culture evolve and entrenched it. Human nature took care of the rest unfortunately, now it's a set of cycles that reinforce a lack of change.
While it's not particularly great in terms of optics, I think we should try deploying Asian/Black police units to the worst affected areas to see if we can dislodge the first obstacle of mistrust, then we combine that with very harsh penalties for carrying knives/guns and get some ex-gangsters to engage with the victim-perpetrators of gang violence.
As a devotee of American blues from the deep south through Chicago and later interpreted by modern bands from the sixties till today there is no music more evocative of persecution however violence is rarely caused by its musicians or its audience.
Music does not invoke violence whatever its lyric. People need to be open to the use of it and will be violent if so disposed.
We're a lot of things but being supposedly intelligent beings you'd sort of hope we'd be able to curb the more harmful aspect of our nature, if we simply allowed our more animalistic nature to rule over us we'd probably still be living in caves bashing each other over the head with clubs.
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