Sennheiser HD650 - The classic beauty in a grey dress Appreciation thread!

Nate75 · 15 Apr 2016 at 18:40

Some good info here, interesting stuff...

PapaLazaru said:
Nate, have you tried them with the UDH yet?

Thinking about getting some as well.

Yep I will be using them solely with the UDH.

First impressions were fascinating tbh. I opened the box plugged them in and whacked on the football last night. I could hear so much more detail, and noticed sounds coming from all different places (it seemed!). Difficult to explain but the odd sound from the crowd seemed to be arriving from positions in the headphones that you would not expect.

I will be listening to some music over the weekend so will be able to share a more useful opinion then.

Cheers for your previous help btw

rids57 · 15 Apr 2016 at 23:15

I've had mine 18 months now (so over 2000 hours of use) and they still seem to keep on getting better - although I know that's not possible

Lately I've been listening to more Jazz and have been really impressed with the bass, it sounds so ridiculously real.

Nate75 · 16 Apr 2016 at 12:41

Glorious

PapaLazaru · 16 Apr 2016 at 13:21

Nate75 said:
Cheers for your previous help btw

My pleasure. Was supposed to be going Racing at Newbury today but it was called off due to the rain. I had a £200 budget for the day, which essentially means I can now buy the 650's guilt free. That's good logic. right?

Safetytrousers · 16 Apr 2016 at 13:39

rids57 said:
As for "burn in", there is nothing to burn in with headphones, a tube amp, definitely but headphones no.

Not true.
''The technical parameters of some drive units can change slightly during their initial use because of the way the various materials employed in their construction flex and move, and the glues and dopes cure over time. ''
Hugh Robjohns.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec14/articles/qa-1214-01.htm&gws_rd=cr&ei=6DASV-m0Hsn9Up7Oi7gF

But in any case all the burn in you might need will come about just by using the headphones.

rids57 · 16 Apr 2016 at 16:28

if you had read further you would have seen....

Physical loosening up of the transducer is probably achieved within the first few minutes as the moving parts micro-adjust to each other, whereas the brain may take a few hours to adjust to the signature, specially if you are used to a brighter headphone like the AKG K7xx series.
As for "burn in", there is nothing to burn in with headphones, a tube amp, definitely but headphones no.

Ryanr1987 · 16 Apr 2016 at 18:00

I've only experienced ben in with headphones that use Biocellulose drivers like the Denon D600, Nighthawk and Fostex dynamic line up mostly because they are more like speaker drivers that use different materials. I doubt people truly notice a big difference with Sennheisers drivers after an hour or two. I can see the argument for bass being tighter after hundreds of hours but the 650 isn't really known for its bass control.

With my Nighthawk I could hear the change as the rubber became loser over time and the warmth, sluggishness or whatever people want to call it went away. The D600 was similar in that regard. It is also important if you own resolving headphones like the 650 and Nighthawks to note that testing with many different tracks can also give the burn in effect because some recordings have bass bloat and the 650 has high enough bass levels to show this so when II go onto a cleaner sounding track your 650's will sound crystal.

C64 · 16 Apr 2016 at 18:08

Ryanr1987 said:
I've only experienced ben in with headphones that use Biocellulose drivers like the Denon D600, Nighthawk and Fostex dynamic line up mostly because they are more like speaker drivers that use different materials. I doubt people truly notice a big difference with Sennheisers drivers after an hour or two. I can see the argument for bass being tighter after hundreds of hours but the 650 isn't really known for its bass control.

With my Nighthawk I could hear the change as the rubber became loser over time and the warmth, sluggishness or whatever people want to call it went away. The D600 was similar in that regard. It is also important if you own resolving headphones like the 650 and Nighthawks to note that testing with many different tracks can also give the burn in effect because some recordings have bass bloat and the 650 has high enough bass levels to show this so when II go onto a cleaner sounding track your 650's will sound crystal.

You seen the Fostex T50rp MkIII ? am tempted to buy a pair

Ryanr1987 · 17 Apr 2016 at 00:21

I like the T50RP driver although it does have a universal peak and a little bit higher distortion. I've not heard the newer model but I've seen measurements that show similar characteristics to the MKII. If you plan to mod them to bring the rolled off bass up then I think they would be a good investment, otherwise good mid tone, vocals are nice on the T50RP's.

Safetytrousers · 17 Apr 2016 at 01:24

rids57 said:
if you had read further you would have seen....

The article has now changed to the non-cached version and it says:
''I’ve personally witnessed the effect of drive unit burn-in with various monitor loudspeakers...I’ve also heard the effect first–hand once or twice with some types of high–quality headphones, too''
and doesn't feature your quote.

I think we can agree whether 'burn in' occurs or not (almost always not) it is not something to worry about.

rids57 · 17 Apr 2016 at 02:45

I meant if you read further down this page you would have seen that I wrote what I quoted, nothing to do with the article you linked to.

And if you're quoting that line you should also quote the next one....

To put it into context, I’ve auditioned countless more monitors that appeared to have no burn–in effect whatsoever.

Safetytrousers · 17 Apr 2016 at 04:31

rids57 said:
I meant if you read further down this page you would have seen that I wrote what I quoted, nothing to do with the article you linked to.
''And if you're quoting that line you should also quote the next one....To put it into context, I’ve auditioned countless more monitors that appeared to have no burn–in effect whatsoever.''

Your original point that I responded to was that headphones never exhibit a phenomenon known as burning in, and I gave evidence of why that assertion was not correct. However infrequently that affect occurs, and over what time scale, does not make your original assertion correct.

Safetytrousers · 17 Apr 2016 at 04:38

C64 said:
Which headphone out specs has the Konnekt 24D got ? the hd650 need a good headphone amp maybe it wasn't up to the task

I can't find clear headphone outputs specs but this is the quote from the SOS review:
''Both the line and headphone outputs reproduced a range of commercial material very well. The stereo imaging was good and mixes sounded clear and detailed. There was also plenty of level on the headphone outputs.''

rids57 · 17 Apr 2016 at 05:05

Safetytrousers said:
Your original point that I responded to was that headphones never exhibit a phenomenon known as burning in, and I gave evidence of why that assertion was not correct. However infrequently that affect occurs, and over what time scale, does not make your original assertion correct.

They do not "burn in" as there is no heat involved, they loosen up as there are moving parts, which is what I said they do.

And no, you did not provide evidence at all, merely someone else's opinion.
The whole subjective v objective argument just goes around and around and as there is really no proof either way the best we can do is to have our own individual opinions and mine is that there is no burn in but there may be an initial loosening up.

james.miller · 17 Apr 2016 at 09:34

Burn in and loosening up are the same thing. I'm suprised you are arguing the toss over the name, rids, that sort of nonsense should be beneath you.

TwsT · 17 Apr 2016 at 10:26

Safetytrousers said:
Your original point that I responded to was that headphones never exhibit a phenomenon known as burning in, and I gave evidence of why that assertion was not correct. However infrequently that affect occurs, and over what time scale, does not make your original assertion correct.

lol are we really arguing semantics over a "phenomenon" which only exists because people lack the ability to apply logic and want a reason for this magic.

Oppo covers it nicely for me.

""Break in" is a process of accelerated aging for mechanical, electronic, and acoustic components. By exercising the components for a period of time, early component failures can be weeded out and parts can settle down to their final working mode. With advances in manufacturing processes and quality control, break in is no longer universally prescribed. Many manufacturers, including OPPO Digital, recommend that customers use the products normally and maintain that the products will achieve optimal performance either out of the box or after a very short period of use.

For customers who want to take their headphones through a break in process, please be mindful of the overall volume level when breaking in the headphones; similar to the way in which a speaker can be overdriven, damage can also occur to headphone drivers when subjected to excessive volume levels. One of the features of the OPPO Planar Magnetic Headphones is its high sensitivity, measured at 102 dB / 1 mW. This means that it requires relatively little power to drive the PM-1 to comfortable listening levels. This also means that if you connect the headphones to a powerful headphone amplifier, such as the OPPO HA-1, you can damage the headphones by setting the headphone amplifier to its highest volume level (in particular, when using the balanced XLR connection in conjunction with the High Gain mode at full volume). The volume level produced by this combination would be painful to listen to, and it would also very likely damage the headphones. In short, you do not want the break in process to actually break the headphones.

Ultimately, we recommend just listening to your music - don't worry about break in; after about 24 hours of listening time, you will have a very clear idea as to how the headphones will sound. But if you insist on a prolonged break in period, please make sure you are using volume levels that you would normally listen to music at. We do not recommend breaking in the headphones using pink noise, white noise, or sine waves, since these methods exercise the diaphragm in a way that is very different from normal music, and it is very easy to choose a potentially damaging volume level when using these signals."

james.miller · 17 Apr 2016 at 10:51

TwsT said:
lol are we really arguing semantics over a "phenomenon" which only exists because people lack the ability to apply logic and want a reason for this magic.

So now it's magic?

Oppo covers it nicely for me.

""Break in" is a process of accelerated aging for mechanical, electronic, and acoustic components. By exercising the components for a period of time, early component failures can be weeded out and parts can settle down to their final working mode.

Now its real again?

Which is it?

---------

The process is real. The amount of change varies, the need to accelerate that process also varies. There's nothing magic about it. There's plenty of evidence that it's real. I didnt notice any change with my 650s, i doubt anybody else did, and since they are one of the few headphones with guaranteed matched drivers I must conclude that senn do all the running in these headphones will need from the factory.

Agree/disagree/whatever, but take ti to another thread if you want to continue arguing IMO.

Ryanr1987 · 17 Apr 2016 at 12:25

I don't think pink noise would damage a well made driver. I think burn in is a mix of these.

- Driver loosening up
- Brain burn in
- Recordings used(Obviously can be ruled out if you use one or a few recordings to test)
- Gear used(Obviously again, ruled out if same gear is used)
- Drivers and materials

I think the majority is brain burn in. I believe the HD650 uses Myler with Neodymium, no rubber surround so I don't see where burn in would come in to play after a few hours? I also don't see how Planars could burn in. Take the Denon D2000 driver and yes, I can see the argument because it's built from materials that can be stiff with minimal use.

titaniumx3 · 17 Apr 2016 at 13:13

My old and new hd650 still sound significantly different despite having used the new 650 for several months now. That being said the pads and headband are still a lot stiffer than on the old one, and I know this will have a effect on the sound.

Like most things, burn in is a mixture of many factors, such as your brain adjusting to the sound, the earpads and headband clamping pressure softening and of course, the driver construction itself actually loosening slightly. I would say that out of those three, the last one has the least effect on sound.

Safetytrousers · 17 Apr 2016 at 13:15

rids57 said:
They do not "burn in" as there is no heat involved, they loosen up as there are moving parts, which is what I said they do.

And no, you did not provide evidence at all, merely someone else's opinion.
.

I said 'known as burning in'. Whether heat is involved or not that is what many people refer to the phenomenon as, rightly or wrongly.
The audible result of breaking/burning in can only be judged subjectively by experience. Even if you could measure a difference, if you can't hear the difference it wouldn't matter at all.
There is probably nobody in the country with the same sort of knowledge and breadth of audio experience as Hugh Robjohns. Expert 'opinion' is used in courts of law.