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Jono8 said:
I disagree, simply because Ford have the ST versions as separate cars on their website on the drop down list ( like BMW have the M cars separately).

It obviously doesn't matter, but as wingman said above, if ST is just a trim level then so are the M3's, Audi RS, VW GTI/R cars etc.
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To use your examples:

Yes an M3 is a trim of 3-series. An E90 M3, is an E90 3-Series.

Yes an RS3 is a trim of an A3 of that same model code.

Yes a Golf GTI/R is a trim of a Golf of that same model code.

And...Yes a Focus ST, or a Focus RS, is a trim of a Focus Mk1, Mk2, etc etc.

My _god_ this is simple :p
 
Jono8 said:
I disagree, simply because Ford have the ST versions as separate cars on their website on the drop down list ( like BMW have the M cars separately)
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This is totally irrelevant though, how they chose to market something has no bearing on it. Remember the first ST? The Mk2 Mondeo ST24. How was that not a trim level?

There is a separate section for the Mondeo Vignale...
 
Jez said:
To use your examples:

Yes an M3 is a trim of 3-series. An E90 M3, is an E90 3-Series.

Yes an RS3 is a trim of an A3 of that same model code.

Yes a Golf GTI/R is a trim of a Golf of that same model code.

And...Yes a Focus ST, or a Focus RS, is a trim of a Focus Mk1, Mk2, etc etc.

My _god_ this is simple :p
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Ok, fine. If that is what a trim is then good.

I just don't understand Fox's reasoning behind the fact an ST is a trim level but a BMW M car is not.

They either are all trims, or we start to get into silliness like having a quota of differences that make them a different car :p
 
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[TW]Fox;29161626 said:
This is totally irrelevant though, how they chose to market something has no bearing on it. Remember the first ST? The Mk2 Mondeo ST24. How was that not a trim level?

There is a separate section for the Mondeo Vignale...
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Ok, but you can't then say a BMW M car is not a trim level.
 
[TW]Fox;29161472 said:
This perfectly describes the Focus ST diesel though, a low displacement engine with an ST styling pack and suspension. Infact tech spec wise it's almost exactly like a 320d in that regard.
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In the Ford range it is not of a lower displacement. It is also in a higher state of tune than the mondeo.

That wasn't my point though. As said, the confusion comes from the M style, s line and AMG packs that are a trim level. You wouldn't get a Fiesta 1.25L with a ST bodykit on it for example. This is where the confusion is coming from i believe.
 
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I would say when you enter the realms of exclusive engines and such like you're in the territory of sub models and versions rather than simply an alternative level of the cars trim.
 
Huh? Bizarre conversation but how is the M series a trim level...it's a halo sub-model for the range with bespoke chassis changes and a single high performance engine.

M sport is a trim level. I've always associated trim level with optional equipment/aesthetic changes.

The ST I would have argued was a sub-model but with the introduction of the diesel I would argue it's a weird hybrid model/trim level lol.
 
Kenai said:
I would say when you enter the realms of exclusive engines and such like you're in the territory of sub models and versions rather than simply an alternative level of the cars trim.
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Mondeo Titanium X was the only model offered with a 204bhp 3.0 V6.

OMG! Titanium X isn't a trim level!

Z4 SDrive35iS has a bespoke engine not available in any other Z4 model. OMG! That must make IS not a trim level.

Citroen Cactus Flair is the only model with navigation.

OMG! FLAIR ISNT A TRIM LEVEL111

There are loads of engines only available in certain trim levels and loads of options (like bodykits, or whatever) only available with certain trim levels.

The car is a Ford Focus. It's trim level is ST1 or whatever. It's that simple.

Even the Ford Focus owner whose car started this debate agrees!
 
SS-89 said:
M sport is a trim level. I've always associated trim level with optional equipment/aesthetic changes.
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M Sport has mechanical changes as well though yet everyone agrees its a trim level, so clearly trim levels are not purely asthetics.

In the mid 90's a 3 Series Sport even gave you an LSD. It was still a trim level of E36...

The BMW 320d ED was the only model offered with a 163bhp variant of the 2 litre diesel. It had an exclusive engine and exclusive styling for areodynamic reasons. Yet ED is a trim level and nobody would argue otherwise :p
 
[TW]Fox;29161772 said:
Mondeo Titanium X was the only model offered with a 204bhp 3.0 V6.

OMG! Titanium X isn't a trim level!

Z4 SDrive35iS has a bespoke engine not available in any other Z4 model. OMG! That must make IS not a trim level.

Citroen Cactus Flair is the only model with navigation.

OMG! FLAIR ISNT A TRIM LEVEL111

There are loads of engines only available in certain trim levels and loads of options (like bodykits, or whatever) only available with certain trim levels.

The car is a Ford Focus. It's trim level is ST1 or whatever. It's that simple.

Even the Ford Focus owner whose car started this debate agrees!
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But just for clarity, do you believe an M3 (for example) to NOT be a trim level?
 
But you could get a Titanium X with a choice of all the other engines in the range too couldn't you? The ST is distinct in that regard, the ST can only be bought with ST engines and every other Focus can only be bought with non ST engines. There is no crossover possible.

An M3 can only be bought with an M3 engine and other 3 series can't have the M engine. No crossover.

If you're going to consider things like M3s as simple trim levels too, then it's just going to be a case of agree to disagree on that distinction.
 
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Kenai said:
But you could get a Titanium X with a choice of all the other engines in the range too couldn't you?
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Not all of them, no.

Lets talk more about how special and not trim level like the 320d ED is, with its completely unique engine offered on none of the other cars in the range.
 
[TW]Fox;29161797 said:
Not all of them, no.

Lets talk more about how special and not trim level like the 320d ED is, with its completely unique engine offered on none of the other cars in the range.
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I'd say that's a sub model too, you can't get an ED with a 3.0 petrol etc. It's all exclusive and distinct, so it's more of a sub model than a trim that can be specced with multiple varying engines and drive train choices. You can have the ED as it comes or you can have something different that's a regular 3 series.
 
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