Singapore Grand Prix 2011, Marina Bay Street Circuit - Race 14/19

[sunama]

Naah they want a No1.5 driver - or even better someone whose 1.25

I do really wish I lived in your world where everything is so easily pigeon-holed. I sometimes wonder if Im not participating in a Turing test

It's not easy to pigeon hole but we can but try our best.
And yes, all teams are looking for a No.1.25 driver, however, in reality, when you are running a team with the No.1/No.2 system (which RBR are doing), all you need from the No.2 is for him to back up his team leader and assist with winning the constructors title.

And with regards to the Turing Test, I can't see how pigeon holing is in anyway related to that.

... the vast majority would say Di Resta is doing the better job overall considering his lack of experience and his qualifying ability...

Sutil is beating Di Resta in the points standings. At the end of the day, a No.2 driver is rated for his co-operation within the team, his ability to follow team order and his ability to score points. Doing well in qualifying doesn't count for much, I'm afraid.

I'm not sure how anyone can say that Di Resta is doing a better job than Sutil, given Sutil's WDC position, relative to Di Resta.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

Di Resta would be ideal in RB tbh - as long as they don't mind him challenging the golden boy over the next few years.

Di Resta has seriously impressed me all season.

Vettel is beating Di Resta in the points standings.

Huh? I miss the point there I think.

Also, how does doing well in quali not matter? As we have seen numerous times previously, the person who qualifies ahead usually gets the choice of strategy from the team. Furthermore, considering how new Di Resta is to F1 compared to Sutil, I think Di Resta is far, far better.

 

[sunama]

Oops... I meant Sutil is beating Di Resta in the points standings.

Why does qualifying not matter?
It certainly cannot be discounted. However, the most important thing for a No.2 driver and even a No.1 driver is to score high in the WDC points standings. The most important thing for any driver is to beat his own team-mate. This carries a lot of weight (though probably not on OCUK who don't seem to rate Vettel which I find strange and are now stating that Di Resta is better than Sutil, even though Sutil is beating Di Resta in the WDC).

It is quite possible that Resta will be better driver than Sutil in 2012 or beyond, but in 2011, Sutil is currently the one scoring more points.

Also, Hamilton has outqualified Button most of the time, yet Button is ahead of Hamilton. Basically this is the same situation as the Force India drivers.
It is almost unanimous that Button is in better form than Hamilton.

So how can Button be the in-form driver at McLaren, yet, in an identical situation at Force India, apparently Sutil is not the in-form driver? You can't have it both ways.

 

[ps3ud0]

And with regards to the Turing Test, I can't see how pigeon holing is in anyway related to that.

Hah you failed! Knew you were a machine

Vettel is beating Di Resta in the points standings. At the end of the day, a No.2 driver is rated for his co-operation within the team, his ability to follow team order and his ability to score points. Doing well in qualifying doesn't count for much, I'm afraid.

I'm not sure how anyone can say that Di Resta is doing a better job than Sutil, given Sutil's WDC position, relative to Di Resta.

Qualifying matters a lot when you are the number 2 - just look at last season with Alonso trying to win the WDC and Massa being nowhere near him to assist - its only until he was going to get lapped or was out of position due to differing pit stop strategies that he came into limited play. Or even Kova when he was hopeless at Mclaren...

Of course Di Restas doing a better job than Sutil, though knowing you, youll use those stats to your advantage but then if I intimated that JBs the no1 driver at Mclaren because of his better points haul this season Im sure you would construct an opposing argument why the points dont matter; nulifying your previous point...

@CaptainRAVE: He means Sutil

ps3ud0

 

[sunama]

Of course Di Restas doing a better job than Sutil, though knowing you, youll use those stats to your advantage but then if I intimated that JBs the no1 driver at Mclaren because of his better points haul this season Im sure you would construct an opposing argument why the points dont matter; nulifying your previous point...

Eh?

At present, if only because he has better form, McLaren may well consider Button to be their No.1, though I believe at this point, given that the season has been written off, they are not operating any system of preferential treatment. Had the WDC still been on-going, then certainly, given that Button was ahead of Hamilton, they "may" have given preferential treatment to Button...which would actually be the right thing to do.

Let me make this simple:
Who is doing a better job at McLaren: Button or Hamilton.
I only want one name.

 

[Indy500]

For the first time in years we actually have a title decider at Japan

As for Sutil v Di Resta...PDR did finish ahead of Sutil in 3 of the first 5 races, and then again at Spain, Hungary and Singapore. Overall it's 7-5 to Sutil in the races they both finished. It's 9-6 in favour of Di Resta in qualifying though.

 

[ps3ud0]

So how can Button be the in-form driver at McLaren, yet, in an identical situation at Force India, apparently Sutil is not the in-form driver? You can't have it both ways.

Its quite simply relative achievement to what people expected those drivers to do at the start of the season. Its not an absolute measure of their achievement...

Sutil is doing what we expected in that team, while Di Resta, a rookie whose never been to the majority of these circuits, is not far off him in the WDC and outperforming him consistently in qualifying, to me hes achieving higher than what I expected him to do so to me hes doing the better job.

Im sure you can work out why Button is doing a better job than Hamilton, but again thats moreso that Hamilton is underperforming to what we would expect far more than Button is really overachieving IMHO...

I certainly would love to see others views on Sutil vs Di Resta - Im genuinely flummoxed by your viewpoint - its very black and white...

Happy to write this in pseudo code if it helps

Eh?

At present, if only because he has better form, McLaren may well consider Button to be their No.1, though I believe at this point, given that the season has been written off, they are not operating any system of preferential treatment. Had the WDC still been on-going, then certainly, given that Button was ahead of Hamilton, they "may" have given preferential treatment to Button...which would actually be the right thing to do.

Let me make this simple:
Who is doing a better job at McLaren: Button or Hamilton.
I only want one name.

Even Hamilton thinks Buttons number 1 this season (apparently whats being reported today) - I dont need to add more to that . Loved the reply though, implying Im the one thats sitting on the fence

ps3ud0

 

[3dcandy]

Yup even Hammy concedes Button has been better this season...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-2042468/Lewis-Hamilton-admits-Jenson-Button-superior.html

 

[FrankJH]

Sutil is beating Di Resta in the points standings. At the end of the day, a No.2 driver is rated for his co-operation within the team, his ability to follow team order and his ability to score points. Doing well in qualifying doesn't count for much, I'm afraid.

I have to completely disagree with you on this (and Im sure majority of team owners / management would as well) - simply because a good quali position makes it a lot easier to score the points the car is worth on any given day

Obviously if you are SV and something goes disasterously wrong and you start at the back (even without fresh tyres and the benefit that brings) the performance of the car alone will allow you to get into the top 5 -6 on majority of tracks within.......10 laps or so? However depending on the other cars on the day the win that the car deserves might / might not be possible whatever you do /however well you drives from the back.

Of course this could be seen as an "almighty save" getting lets say a podium at the flag, even though the car should have won - or it could be seen as a loss of a win.....


I think its a little harsh comparing like to like a rookie (who imo is doing brilliantly in an average car) with a team mate who has a few years experience ( and in NO WAY is that interteam competition similar as between Lewis / JB - simply because the difference in experience SHOULD BE negligable given the amount the lesser experienced Lewis actually has, IF Lewis actually decided to take note of his previous mistakes and learn from them - only him to blame that he continues not doing this)

 

[dannyjo22]

So basically JB has been awesome this year and in the form of his life and yet is not even 20 points ahead of his team mate having the worst season of his career.

 

[Irish_Tom]

I certainly would love to see others views on Sutil vs Di Resta - Im genuinely flummoxed by your viewpoint - its very black and white...

I can see where both of you are coming from to be honest.

Both drivers have had two DNFs, PDR has done better in quali but Sutil has converted his poorer starting positions into more points.

You could argue that as PDR is still a rookie he's doing better than expected but it's a tough call to say which of the two is 'the better driver'...

 

[Duke]

So basically JB has been awesome this year and in the form of his life and yet is not even 20 points ahead of his team mate having the worst season of his career.

He has been let down by the team though, compared to Hamilton who has made his own mistake more often than not.

At least he wasn't 'completed destroyed' by Hamilton though, which was the line a few on here used before he joined

 

[Glaucus]

You could argue that as PDR is still a rookie he's doing better than expected but it's a tough call to say which of the two is 'the better driver'...

I don't see. It as tough. One driver has been in the sport 4 seasons and hence knows the cars, learnt loads, knows the tracks.
On the other side you have a complete rookie with out knowledge of F1 or some of the tracks and is still outperforming the old boy in qualifying and almost matching him in race.

PDR has done far the better job, as he's done far more than expected. Where sutil is doing what is expected of him and no more.

 

[utajoker]

He has been let down by the team though, compared to Hamilton who has made his own mistake more often than not.

a DNF is DNF.

hamilton has also been let down by the team through strategy or what not.

considering the form button is in and the lack of for hamilton, i would expect more of a points gap.

 

[Duke]

considering the form button is in and the lack of for hamilton, i would expect more of a points gap.

Even with Vettel taking most the points for the season himself? Not like Mclaren have had the quickest car.

 

[Irish_Tom]

I don't see. It as tough. One driver has been in the sport 4 seasons and hence knows the cars, learnt loads, knows the tracks.
On the other side you have a complete rookie with out knowledge of F1 or some of the tracks and is still outperforming the old boy in qualifying and almost matching him in race.

PDR has done far the better job, as he's done far more than expected. Where sutil is doing what is expected of him and no more.

Don't get me wrong, I full expect PDR to become a better driver than Sutil, it's just at the moment Sutil is performing better.

Just because driver A is exceeding expectations, it doesn't mean he's better than driver B who is matching expectations if you see what I mean.

 

[JRS]

At least he wasn't 'completed destroyed' by Hamilton though, which was the line a few on here used before he joined

Indeed. And even before his move to McLaren was mooted, before the 2009 season in fact, I seem to recall a post....ah yes.

If you ever want the future predicted with 100% accuracy, I would venture to say that sunama is not necessarily the guy to ask

 

[Irish_Tom]

I think sunama is to Motorsports what drunkenmaster is to The Football Stadium.

 

[Duke]

Indeed. And even before his move to McLaren was mooted, before the 2009 season in fact, I seem to recall a post....ah yes.

If you ever want the future predicted with 100% accuracy, I would venture to say that sunama is not necessarily the guy to ask

 

[ps3ud0]

So basically JB has been awesome this year and in the form of his life and yet is not even 20 points ahead of his team mate having the worst season of his career.

No sure if thats in reply to one of my posts but not at all, I dont think JB is driving that much better than when he won the WDC - hes just seems far more comfortable at McLaren and letting the car come to him and his drving style. As someone else has already said hes been letdown by the team more often than LH has too...

Hes not that special this year, but unfortunately when you compare it to LH in similar equipment, I can see why people think hes in the form of his life...

I can see where both of you are coming from to be honest.

Both drivers have had two DNFs, PDR has done better in quali but Sutil has converted his poorer starting positions into more points.

You could argue that as PDR is still a rookie he's doing better than expected but it's a tough call to say which of the two is 'the better driver'...

I can see what youre saying, but I never said PDR is the better driver, just that hes doing the better job this year - to me theres quite a difference in those definitions...

ps3ud0