Singapore Grand Prix 2012, Marina Bay - Race 14/20

smr · 24 Sep 2012 at 13:40

Why does Lewis need Jenson's help to win the WDC. All he needs to do is stick the car on pole which he has shown he is capable of doing plenty. And then win the race by driving off into the sunset.

Where does Jenson have to factor in in order to help Lewis win the WDC?

Kenai · 24 Sep 2012 at 13:46

smr said:
Why does Lewis need Jenson's help to win the WDC. All he needs to do is stick the car on pole which he has shown he is capable of doing plenty. And then win the race by driving off into the sunset.

Where does Jenson have to factor in in order to help Lewis win the WDC?

Because if he's winning a race when Lewis isn't, it's a complete waste of points for Button to take 25 and Lewis 18, when it could be the other way round - either way McLaren get the 43 constructor points, but Lewis would benefit more from the 25 than Jenson would.

Essentially it's not that Jenson needs to 'help' Lewis, it's just that they need to be sensible about not having Jenson take points off him needlessly because lets face it, from time to time he is just quicker than Lewis over a race.

They'll kick themselves if they pass up an opportunity to swap them round and then Lewis ends up missing out by just a few points.

Where he can also help him though, is by trying to make sure he's in front of Alonso and stopping him racking up too many high scoring finishes.

Irish_Tom · 24 Sep 2012 at 14:01

Kenai said:
Where he can also help him though, is by trying to make sure he's in front of Alonso and stopping him racking up too many high scoring finishes.

Exactly.

Lewis needs to our score Alonso by an average of 10 Points a race for the next six races.

The best way for him to do that is to win the remaining races and have as many cars between him and Alonso as the chequered flag comes down.

For McLaren it would be ideal if JB was one of those cars, preferably in second behind Lewis to secure the WCC.

I know it's next to impossible, but LH>JB>FA for the remaining races would be perfect.

Mr Men · 24 Sep 2012 at 14:07

But you guys should be supporting Vettel now as he is the one to keep the title close

So who wants to tell knip?

smr · 24 Sep 2012 at 14:12

Just throwing this one "in there" but if Jenson wins the next race , as he has proved he is more than capable of, and Lewis for some reason DNFs, then Jenson will be on 144 points and Lewis on 142.

I proposed this outcome just before the Spa GP. Could easily happen again

People are so quick to be saying that Jenson should be helping Lewis. I find it all way too premature.

Don't forget that Seb won the 2010 WDC with two races to go and the same amount of points behind that he is atm.

There's lots of racing to do yet.

Kenai · 24 Sep 2012 at 14:19

smr said:
Just throwing this one "in there" but if Jenson wins the next race , as he has proved he is more than capable of, and Lewis for some reason DNFs, then Jenson will be on 144 points and Lewis on 142.

And if that happens, with Alonso picking up yet another solid points finish as he's been doing all season, then they've both had it pretty much, barring anything extraordinary happening. Lewis is already something like 50 points or more behind isn't it?

Fast forward a race as you predict and then they're left with 5 races and still more than a 50 point gap to make up if Alonso DNFs, or probably a 60 or 70 point+ gap if he gets a good points finish, which is the more likely outcome.

smr · 24 Sep 2012 at 14:21

Kenai said:
And if that happens, with Alonso picking up yet another solid points finish as he's been doing all season, then they've both had it pretty much, barring anything extraordinary happening. Lewis is already something like 50 points or more behind isn't it?

Fast forward a race as you predict and then they're left with 5 races and still more than a 50 point gap to make up if Alonso DNFs, or probably a 60 or 70 point+ gap if he gets a good points finish, which is the more likely outcome.

Well the circuit's left probably suit Mclaren's car more than anyone elses. Alonso MUST have at least two DNFs through mechanical failure or other. Otherwise it's probably the luckiest season in F1 history.

Mr Men · 24 Sep 2012 at 14:21

Since all this DNF talk began McLaren have had a DNF every race

Mr Men · 24 Sep 2012 at 14:23

smr said:
Well the circuit's left probably suit Mclaren's car more than anyone elses. Alonso MUST have at least two DNFs through mechanical failure or other. Otherwise it's probably the luckiest season in F1 history.

LOL is it a rule you have mechanical failures? Part of the sport is building a car that finishes races, there is no luck in that.

Irish_Tom · 24 Sep 2012 at 14:24

I think you can only judge it on the standings as they are now and right now JB is 23 points behind Lewis who is 52 points behind Alonso.

If, in three races time, JB is ahead of Lewis then this could change, but as Kenai says, if that were to happen it would probably mean Alonso, Vettel or Kimi would already have it wrapped up.

Kenai · 24 Sep 2012 at 14:25

smr said:
Well the circuit's left probably suit Mclaren's car more than anyone elses. Alonso MUST have at least two DNFs through mechanical failure or other. Otherwise it's probably the luckiest season in F1 history.

Sadly I don't think mechanical luck works quite like that

I just think they'd be daft to let their drivers rob points off each other if they have the opportunity to strengthen the campaign of the driver who is still just about in contention at the moment.

Off the back of Jenson's season to date, it's hugely unlikely he's going to win every race with enough of a points advantage over Alonso and Vettel to beat them both to the title at this stage - it would be nice but it's hugely unlikely.

Duke · 24 Sep 2012 at 14:46

smr said:
Why does Lewis need Jenson's help to win the WDC. All he needs to do is stick the car on pole which he has shown he is capable of doing plenty. And then win the race by driving off into the sunset.

Where does Jenson have to factor in in order to help Lewis win the WDC?

Although I think Mclaren are fine at the moment, if Lewis does manage to win a few more races which he should be able to, having the quickest car at the moment, then JB needs to be getting ahead of Vettel and Alonso to help that way.

Duke · 24 Sep 2012 at 14:48

Skeeter said:
Yep, I think Suzuka has always been the plan for when it would be used.

Interestingly, the change in the rules that bans these 'Double DRS' devices renders the Mercedes DDRS illegal, but doesn't make Lotus's system, or the other system Mercedes tested at the Young Drivers Test illegal.

Yep the Merc one is now OK for next season. I wonder how busy the other top teams are at developing it or whether they will ignore it until next season now, if bigger gains can be made elsewhere.

utajoker · 24 Sep 2012 at 14:59

i think with speed hamilton has shown in the last 2 races, 1 extreme low down force and 1 high down force he should be expecting to win all the remaining races.

Skeeter · 24 Sep 2012 at 15:20

smr said:
Where does Jenson have to factor in in order to help Lewis win the WDC?

Regardless of who helps who, the way its done is by beating your oponents. For Driver B to help Driver A win the WDC, Driver B needs to ensure he finishes ahead of Driver A's rivals.

Alonso has been able to do this without a wingman. Just imagine how much further ahead he would be if Massa had finished in the spot behind Alonso in every race so far?

The flip side is that if you have 2 fairly equal drivers, they just end up sharing the points between them rather than helping build the most for one driver.

Dave M · 24 Sep 2012 at 16:15

Hamilton does have the advantage that his wing-man is capable of regularly (in recent races at least) mixing it up at the front. Massa most certainly is not and Webber hasn't really been there either recently.

Considering how strong hamilton is in the mclaren at the moment and the ability of williams, mercedes and lotus to get ahead of the ferrari of alonso on a good day I'd wonder how alonso is going to stay on top.

His only hope I think is hamilton and vettel share the rest of the wins fairly evenly and he manages to sneak another win in a wet race (or track that suits the ferrari) to keep his nose ahead.

He could easily finish some races in 6th or 7th unless that ferrari gets a lot faster and that's not going to do him any good at all if one of hamilton/vettel goes on a run of race wins.

DRZ · 24 Sep 2012 at 17:03

Skeeter said:
Yep, I think Suzuka has always been the plan for when it would be used.

Interestingly, the change in the rules that bans these 'Double DRS' devices renders the Mercedes DDRS illegal, but doesn't make Lotus's system, or the other system Mercedes tested at the Young Drivers Test illegal.

Could that be because it doesn't ban "Double DRS" at all but instead bans the DRS activation from being used for a secondary purpose?

It will take a lot of clever wording to ban what Lotus are doing because that wording would need to be ridiculously specific to avoid banning just about every surface on the car. Maybe they could limit the effects (but then the F-Duct ban wording already does limit how effective the Lotus system is) but as with so many things in F1, what has been learned cannot be un-learned.

I bet the exhaust outlet rules didn't forsee the extensive use of the Coanda effect to practically circumvent the intention of the ruling anyway, but what could they do now? Have the exhausts up in the air with a flap on like a tractor?

Duke · 24 Sep 2012 at 17:21

DRZ said:
I bet the exhaust outlet rules didn't forsee the extensive use of the Coanda effect to practically circumvent the intention of the ruling anyway, but what could they do now? Have the exhausts up in the air with a flap on like a tractor?

All they needed to do was have the rules they were going to do originally, which (off the top of my head) was having the exhaust exit much further back - so the tips were below the rear wing itself so there was no way they could be directed.

Can't remember if this was just delayed until the new engines?

Greboth · 24 Sep 2012 at 17:23

Haha that would be brilliant with the exhausts, breaking news Fergusson to enter F1 lol.

As for the championship, using the past then would have to rate the Mclarens to win the remaining races. However Alonso has been scoring too consistantly to be caught with a terrible weekend or a DNF. I want Hamilton to win it and would prefer he won it by simply out driving his opponents and I wouldnt wish anyone a DNF as I think its against the idea of competitve sport but l do think its his only hope.

Skeeter · 24 Sep 2012 at 17:30

DRZ said:
Could that be because it doesn't ban "Double DRS" at all but instead bans the DRS activation from being used for a secondary purpose?

Not quite sure what the wink is for, but anyway, yes, the change in rules ban the use of the moveable DRS flap for anything other than its intended DRS use. Other air channelling stuff is, for the moment, legal. My point was that while Lotus may be late bringing the device to the car this season, it is something that they will be able to use next season too. Unlike Mercedes DDRS system which will be banned. Expect to hear the "protests to see clarification over its legality" from other teams shortly, with them wanting to make sure its going to stay legal before plowing money into it.

I bet the exhaust outlet rules didn't forsee the extensive use of the Coanda effect to practically circumvent the intention of the ruling anyway

I think the teams (or at least those who arrived with the channeled exhausts first) knew exactly what they were doing with the new exhaust rules. The original plans were as Duke said, to have exhaust exits be round, horizontal, and exit behind the rear axle. The teams agreed on the current rules instead and low and behold, they found a way to utilize them. Fancy that.

I think the exhaust rules are changed for the 2014 season again anyway. With a single centre line mounted turbo it restricts what options they will have.