Singapore Grand Prix 2012, Marina Bay - Race 14/20

[FrankJH]

I think he has as much chance as Hamilton or Button. Yes the specifics are different (Lotus need a faster car, while McLaren need to stop screwing up or dropping the ball), but he's still in with a chance. After all, he is 3rd in the championship, ahead of all but 2 of the race winners this year, including a number of multiple race winners, all without winning a race himself.

Kimi is doing the same as Alonso, just without the race wins. He's being consistent and keeping his nose clean.

I totally see your point - but there are significant differences.

1) Currently there are at least two teams and at least three seperate drivers who need to ***** up completely and simultaneously for Kimi to win on outright pace on any given weekend. One team /one car , yes thats possible (maybe even probable if you only consider McLaren lol), but two or three teams (Im saying two teams minimum only because between McLaren/Ferrari and RB , its rare for all three to be right up there on the same track)

2) Kimi has to get any upgrades to work perfectly 1st time out, and hope no other team get a similar upgrade working. This is just to get level let alone ahead.

given the pace differential I can see McLaren at the very least being ahead of Lotus for the remaining races - I just cant see Kimi going anywhere but backwards in the WDC from here on (given how close Lewis and MW are especially )

Of course he has a shot - Im just not sure how realistic it is

I think McLaren (and JB/LH) would be daft not to back Hamilton from this point onwards, he's got no chance of taking the title if Button is taking points off him and Button hasn't got a hope in hell of taking the title from where he is now. It would be nice to see them all work together and push the driver with the best chance.

After all, to win the WCC, it doesn't matter which driver they have score points - to win the WDC they need it to be Lewis, so they may as well focus on him now. Why focus on one, when you could get both?

Life isnt that simple however

1stly - If JB is out front and LH is several positions behind is JB meant to just stop until Lewis is ahead? (Im not suggesting this is going to happen, but its not beyond the realms of possibility either) - even 2nd vs 5th or something?

Why demotivate JB (who could end up being the team lead next season) when he HAS to do the best for the team for the WCC to be possible

Why risk one and potentially get neither? (your question is equally as valid, but looking at either championship one is much easier to think about winning, and sadly it isnt the most coveted)

 

[arknor]

Why does Lewis need Jenson's help to win the WDC. All he needs to do is stick the car on pole which he has shown he is capable of doing plenty. And then win the race by driving off into the sunset.

Where does Jenson have to factor in in order to help Lewis win the WDC?

because he isnt capable of winning it by himself much like eddie irvine in 1998, he needs an on form button to deny his rivals points if hes to have any chance.

its no suprise whitmarsh seems to favour button in a case like this, he can obviously see something most mclaren fans would prefer to stay blind to

 

[drunkenmaster]

Button might be number 1 in the team next year, he might not, either way he could still find himself supporting the number 2 if that person is ahead with a few races to go, its part and parcel of his job.

He's basically number 2 now and is expected to help Lewis, Button would expect the same help if he was ahead, so if anything if asked to do it now he should have more belief that if he had a great shot at the title the team would do everything they could to support him. Not asking him to help Lewis now and all you're telling Button is next year if you're in the same position, we won't help you either.

I can't see the Lotus doing well in the rest of the season but it really depends how their double drs works out. Kimi's a great driver and if they give him the car he could do it, but realistically they seem to be moving further away as the season goes on, not closer, but then that is F1, one big upgrade and you're ahead, one big upgrade to another team and you're behind for a few races. The real problem is the Ferrari has been the fastest car, the Mclaren has, the Red Bull hasn't, Lotus really haven't had a peak to add to the consistency. Ferrari have been consistently top 5 when the car isn't capable of 1st but also been first a few times and that will be the difference between Lotus and Ferrari.

 

[Kenai]

Life isnt that simple however

1stly - If JB is out front and LH is several positions behind is JB meant to just stop until Lewis is ahead? (Im not suggesting this is going to happen, but its not beyond the realms of possibility either) - even 2nd vs 5th or something?

Why demotivate JB (who could end up being the team lead next season) when he HAS to do the best for the team for the WCC to be possible

Why risk one and potentially get neither? (your question is equally as valid, but looking at either championship one is much easier to think about winning, and sadly it isnt the most coveted)

No you, wouldn't make one stop and lose 4 places to just get the other ahead (well, maybe in the last race if it got a vital extra point). Deliberately losing multiple places is just retarded and clearly not what I was getting at.

At McLaren, if one car is 1st and the other 2nd, they currently refuse to employ any sort of team orders which is lovely and noble when both guys have something to fight for - at this stage in the season, with things as they stand, they'd be better off swapping them put Lewis in front if it were possible, as Jenson doesn't realistically have a title to fight for on his own.

 

[DRZ]

Not quite sure what the wink is for, but anyway, yes, the change in rules ban the use of the moveable DRS flap for anything other than its intended DRS use. Other air channelling stuff is, for the moment, legal. My point was that while Lotus may be late bringing the device to the car this season, it is something that they will be able to use next season too. Unlike Mercedes DDRS system which will be banned. Expect to hear the "protests to see clarification over its legality" from other teams shortly, with them wanting to make sure its going to stay legal before plowing money into it.

The wink was "in return" for the way you used "interestingly" in a kind of accusative way in your post. Your 'clarification' above a) makes sense and b) could in no way have been inferred from your previous post.

Anyway, I'd love to see how they could ban the technology. Essentially what Lotus have done is to use air flowing from front to back to... make air flow from front to back. The fact that the air changes direction above some indiscernable (external to the team) speed is what makes this so hard to ban.

I think the teams (or at least those who arrived with the channeled exhausts first) knew exactly what they were doing with the new exhaust rules. The original plans were as Duke said, to have exhaust exits be round, horizontal, and exit behind the rear axle. The teams agreed on the current rules instead and low and behold, they found a way to utilize them. Fancy that.

I think the exhaust rules are changed for the 2014 season again anyway. With a single centre line mounted turbo it restricts what options they will have.

Not sure on the 2014 exhaust rules but having the exhausts exit after the rear wing would make the cars look hilarious!

 

[Skeeter]

its no suprise whitmarsh seems to favour button in a case like this, he can obviously see something most mclaren fans would prefer to stay blind to

Uh... what?

 

[sunama]

I have to say I still think JB will beat LH in the championship

Frank, would you care for a small wager?

 

[Skeeter]

The wink was "in return" for the way you used "interestingly" in a kind of accusative way in your post. Your 'clarification' above a) makes sense and b) could in no way have been inferred from your previous post.

Anyway, I'd love to see how they could ban the technology. Essentially what Lotus have done is to use air flowing from front to back to... make air flow from front to back. The fact that the air changes direction above some indiscernable (external to the team) speed is what makes this so hard to ban.



Not sure on the 2014 exhaust rules but having the exhausts exit after the rear wing would make the cars look hilarious!

I suppose they could ban bodywork from the area where Mercedes and Lotus are running the central pipes? Much like they did with F ducts by banning shark fins that reached the rear wing.

It doesn't look like the ideas are offering enough performance for the FIA to worry about banning them yet though. I'm sure if the Lotus is suddenly super fast they might take an interest though.

And the original exhaust exits would have been low down and towards the centre. On top of the diffuser having passed either side of the gearbox.

I imagine the 2014 ones will exit through the rear crash structure sort of area. The render of the PURE engine showed the turbo exhaust being above the gearbox.

 

[sunama]

Kimi is doing the same as Alonso, just without the race wins. He's being consistent and keeping his nose clean.

I have to say that Kimi has been the big surprise for me, this year.
The guy doesn't have a great car, yet is still hanging on. Very impressive.
I've never rated Kimi too highly, but after this year, I may have to change my mind.

 

[DRZ]

I suppose they could ban bodywork from the area where Mercedes and Lotus are running the central pipes? Much like they did with F ducts by banning shark fins that reached the rear wing.

It doesn't look like the ideas are offering enough performance for the FIA to worry about banning them yet though. I'm sure if the Lotus is suddenly super fast they might take an interest though.

And the original exhaust exits would have been low down and towards the centre. On top of the diffuser having passed either side of the gearbox.

They could run the pipes anywere and the inlets are in/around the roll hoops. The Lotus solution doesn't even use pipes the whole way, they use the joints in various components IIRC.

 

[Skeeter]

They could run the pipes anywere and the inlets are in/around the roll hoops. The Lotus solution doesn't even use pipes the whole way, they use the joints in various components IIRC.

There is still a vertical pipe that extends up to under the rear wing though, from the monkey seat. They could ban anything from the area under the rear wing perhaps?

Like you say though, it won't be easy, but I'm not convinced that its going to offer massive gains. But I could be wrong and Lotus storm to an easy win in Suzuka

 

[DRZ]

How could they do that? They'd have to ban the beam wing/transponder/rear light assembly or move the whole thing backwards somehow? And even then, they could just take the hit and run the pipework up the sides!

Fluidic switches/coanda effect stuf has been learned and because they are "invisible", it is going to take a lot to word the regulations accordingly. Imagine they tried to ban airflow through enclosed "tubular" spaces? That'd be sidepods gone. No internal airflow above a certain height passing through the car? No air intakes up on high! No holes in the rear of the bodywork = no starter hole / exhaust pipes etc. No curved surfaces? LOL.

Or, just not ban it...

 

[arknor]

I have to say that Kimi has been the big surprise for me, this year.
The guy doesn't have a great car, yet is still hanging on. Very impressive.
I've never rated Kimi too highly, but after this year, I may have to change my mind.

hes clearly under performing in that car...

not a great car? lol wut its the 3rd-4th best car in most races yet we often see kimi behind one of the much slower mercedes and sometimes a sauber aswell.

 

[Mr Men]

because he isnt capable of winning it by himself much like eddie irvine in 1998, he needs an on form button to deny his rivals points if hes to have any chance.

its no suprise whitmarsh seems to favour button in a case like this, he can obviously see something most mclaren fans would prefer to stay blind to

Indeed, it was 99 for Irvine though, he even needed Salo to move over for him then expected MS to win him at Suzuka, loved Eddie though

 

[Skeeter]

I expect they will leave it for a while, there's been no hint they are looking at it. But there's also been little interest (publicly) from many other teams. Its not had anywhere near the same level of interest as the F ducts.

As unpopular as it is, I do understand the FIAs drive to control aero development. Its stupidly expensive and has zero relevance to road cars. But its their own fault due to the restrictions they have in other areas. At he end of the day, F1 engineers are clever people, and seeing the interesting ways they can exploit the rules is one of the great things about F1.

 

[Lopéz]

hes clearly under performing in that car...

not a great car? lol wut its the 3rd-4th best car in most races yet we often see kimi behind one of the much slower mercedes and sometimes a sauber aswell.

What are you on about? If it's the 3rd/4th best car in most races, and he is 3rd in the championship, then I'd say he's far from underperforming.

 

[sunama]

hes [Kimi] clearly under performing in that car...

Kimi is in 3rd place in the WDC.
The only drivers ahead of him are Vettel and Alonso, who many believe are the best drivers in F1 at the moment. Moreover, both the RBR and Ferrari (averaged across the season), have better cars than the Lotus.

By rights, Button and Hamilton should both be ahead of Kimi. And some may say that Webber should also be ahead of him.

If somebody had told me before the season started that, in the 4th best car, Kimi would be in 3rd place in the title race, I would not have believed them.

 

[Skillmister]

hes clearly under performing in that car...

not a great car? lol wut its the 3rd-4th best car in most races yet we often see kimi behind one of the much slower mercedes and sometimes a sauber aswell.

3rd place in the championship in a 6-8th best car is underperforming

 

[Mr Men]

Hamilton's bid, though, could receive a boost from Button with McLaren's team boss Whitmarsh revealing the elder of the two Brits may be willing to play the team game.

"Jenson has had a conversation with me, he initiated it," he told the BBC.

"He's an immensely competitive individual, but he's a team player.

"Things that happen in the future will come from within him. I'll never ask and I don't want to ask. If he chooses to do something in the best interest of the team, that's up to him."

He added: "At the moment, the best thing we can do is keep developing the car. Both drivers are going to be driving as fast as they can in Suzuka."

McLaren team orders incoming....

 

[Skillmister]

An obvious thing to do, it's just whether or not they go for "let hamilton past", "lewis is faster than you", or "blue plan 6 button forward red mode engine save 2 jenson tyre wear confirm?"