Poll: Singapore Grand Prix 2017, Singapore - Race 14/20

[Flibster]

Best of the radio video now up. No point embedding as it won't work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob54czhnp2Q

And the start accident - all the angles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T1_VrTcoo

 

[Steampunk]

That overhead helicopter shot at 0:17 shows how far up Max was on Vettel before he tried to brake out of the impending crash at 0:18. He's easily got the front half of his car alongside the back half of Vettel's car.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Lots of people were trying to say Max never got alongside him at all and Vettel was clear in front the whole way. THe only reason he's in front by the crash is Max sees the move and decides to back away from the crazy man and even backing off he only just misses him by inches.

 

[this_is_gav]

I keep seeing this like it's an excusable situation. Not knowing another car is there is not any kind of excuse or reasoning. If you have a poor start you can expect more than 1 car to be getting alongside you.

Let's have a test. Let's see what the fewest number of characters you can use in answer.

When Hamilton couldn't see Rosberg in Spa and closed the door on him in 2014 was your answer the same?

 

[BuffetSlayer]

T1 crash was Vettels fault all day long. He has shown already this season that he likes to open his steering and bully other cars off the track. But when a driver does the same to him he cries and whinges. Typical hypocrite.

Following a poor launch, he tried the bullying tactic again in Singapore - just look at the aggressive angle he cuts across the track and in those kind of conditions it was simply a reckless move. A needless reckless move.

Ended Ferarris race and quite possibly his own chance at the championship.

He has a massive track record of this kind of thing, so Im really not sure why so many people jump to his defence. Max is no angel but to be fair to him he had nowhere to go ams did try to avoid contact. You cant blame max for not lifting and then not blame Kimi for the same. Kimi did move towards the right just before impact and he could have lifted too.

Vettels almost 45 degree swipe across the track was obviously intended to crowd max into the wall.

 

[koolpc]

T1 crash was Vettels fault all day long. He has shown already this season that he likes to open his steering and bully other cars off the track. But when a driver does the same to him he cries and whinges. Typical hypocrite.

Following a poor launch, he tried the bullying tactic again in Singapore - just look at the aggressive angle he cuts across the track and in those kind of conditions it was simply a reckless move. A needless reckless move.

Ended Ferarris race and quite possibly his own chance at the championship.

He has a massive track record of this kind of thing, so Im really not sure why so many people jump to his defence. Max is no angel but to be fair to him he had nowhere to go ams did try to avoid contact. You cant blame max for not lifting and then not blame Kimi for the same. Kimi did move towards the right just before impact and he could have lifted too.

Vettels almost 45 degree swipe across the track was obviously intended to crowd max into the wall.

Agree

 

[this_is_gav]

It is no different to what Hamilton did to Stroll 2 weeks ago.

Following a poor launch, he tried the bullying tactic again in Singapore - just look at the aggressive angle he cuts across the track and in those kind of conditions it was simply a reckless move. A needless reckless move.

Retrospectively it was ill-advised, and yes it has probably cost him the championship, but it's been done dozens of times at the start in the past few years and many more times before that with no comment. There's even been drivers pointing their cars inwards at their teammates in preparation of warding them off before the cars even start moving! It wasn't an aggressive swipe across move, it was constant and consistent from the off, it just so happened Raikkonen was on the other side of Verstappen and of all of the drivers involved Vettel was the only one that didn't know that.

He has a massive track record of this kind of thing, so Im really not sure why so many people jump to his defence.

Vettel has a "massive" track record of this? Name them. I'll bet you can't make it further than one hand. He's no worse than any other top driver.


For the record, again, I'm not defending him, merely saying that it was just the way it happened. He made a genuine and perfectly acceptable move, as proven over many years, it was just poor luck that Raikkonen had made as good a start as Vettel had made bad. Yes Vettel's move caused the accident but I don't think he can be faulted for it. For me it was the dictionary definition of a racing incident.

 

[Jono8]

It is no different to what Hamilton did to Stroll 2 weeks ago.



Retrospectively it was ill-advised, and yes it has probably cost him the championship, but it's been done dozens of times at the start in the past few years and many more times before that with no comment. There's even been drivers pointing their cars inwards at their teammates in preparation of warding them off before the cars even start moving! It wasn't an aggressive swipe across move, it was constant and consistent from the off, it just so happened Raikkonen was on the other side of Verstappen and of all of the drivers involved Vettel was the only one that didn't know that.

Personally, as you say, i don't see a move like that as a big problem normally, but in these conditions it was foolhardy. No doubt Vettel couldn't see anything behind him because of the spray so did not clock Kimi, and could probably barely even see Max properly. He also had a pretty poor start so likewise should have been thinking "probably shouldn't do the textbook lunge across the track to cover people off in case i can;t see them and they are approaching too fast"


Like all types of driving, you drive to the conditions - Vettel did not.

It was a racing incident, no doubt. But it was mainly caused by Vettel's shortsighted crossing of the track.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Let's have a test. Let's see what the fewest number of characters you can use in answer.

When Hamilton couldn't see Rosberg in Spa and closed the door on him in 2014 was your answer the same?

Okay here's a hint, the rules state that the car ahead at the apex has the right to drive to the edge of the track on exit. The reason Palmer got a penalty when someone else didn't was Palmer was just behind at the apex.

Rosberg pushed Hamilton wide on exit multiple times over the 3 years, no one cared, I didn't care, because it's how it works and has ALWAYS worked in F1. He did it in Canada, did it in Bahrain iirc in 2014 on one of his passes and has done it elsewhere, maybe Cota, etc. This is normal driving. Hamilton closed the door on him because he's entirely legally able to and every single driver, Rosberg included has done that. When Rosberg does it, Hamilton gets out of the way and doesn't complain about it once because that is racing. When Hamilton does it to Rosberg, Rosberg says he intentionally chose not to avoid an accident.... or literally the same statement as he chose to hit him on purpose.

It is no different to what Hamilton did to Stroll 2 weeks ago.

It's entirely different to what Hamilton did. Stroll was 100% behind Hamilton at EVERY moment and in particular when he moved across the track. Stroll could actually have not moved at all from his line and Hamilton defending the inside line wouldn't have hit or effected Stroll at all. Stroll hoped to get the run and get the speed to pull alongside so kept going that way but he didn't have to.

Here Max was absolutely alongside Vettel and had he not moved Vettel would absolutely have hit him.

Bringing up one similar but not the same situation and then also bringing up a completely different situation in which Rosberg was punished and universally held accountable except by those who hate Hamilton isn't helping your cause here.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131590/fia-explains-why-alonso-escaped-spa-penalty

According to the FIA's guidelines, which were made clear to the drivers back in 2013, if a driver is intending to overtake on the outside, and at the apex of the corner he is in front, he must be given room on the exit of the corner.

Whiting showed the drivers onboard footage of both incidents, which showed that Hulkenberg had his car in front by the time they reached the apex, hence Magnussen was given a penalty.

Now fair enough with this statement from Palmer


https://drivetribe.com/p/fernando-a..._AEdRkmxsTRnYF-78w?iid=eqm8bYLbS26UrGJxX7qGNw

"It’s what I thought might happen when we had a big meeting [in Monza ahead of the race]. If someone is on the inside, you can just release the brakes.

"You are then ahead of the apex sure, but the other guys got nowhere to go apart from crash or cut the corner. I cut the corner, I came back on side by side, and made it in the next corner.

It's open to exploitation in that if you do a late move you should in reality brake enough to take a tight enough line to leave room, but if you brake late so you can only take a wide line if you brake late enough to get ahead at the apex the move will be legal. But if you do that and you don't make it ahead at the apex you'll basically just smash the guy on the outside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CYI8Hc1rL8

However this isn't what happened at Spa, Rosberg got partially alongside on the outside down the straight. Hamilton was clearly well ahead at the apex, Rosberg had ZERO right to space on exit, everyone knows that, the rules have always been that but Charlie reiterated them to the drivers in 2013. Rosberg had no right to any space and yet got a fair amount, he had plenty of space and time to slip in behind Hamilton easily. That crash was both actually 100% Rosberg's fault and the team held him fully responsible making a public statement that he'd be disciplined and this was widely reported to be a 200k euro fine.

The only reason the stewards didn't penalise him was the team didn't make a complaint to the stewards, if it had been a Ferrari that did it or had it done to by another teams car then there would have been a penalty. Teams have no reason to push for a penalty against their own cars and stewards 100% take into account if someone is complaining about something happened when considering investigating/penalising things.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

Quite clearly.

Agreed. Vettel never stops cutting max off and kimi plummets down the other side. Max can't just disappear into thin air

The radio was great. Vettel was properly gutted and it was clear he knew he was at fault.

 

[this_is_gav]

Let's have a test. Let's see what the fewest number of characters you can use in answer.

When Hamilton couldn't see Rosberg in Spa and closed the door on him in 2014 was your answer the same?

Okay here's a hint, the rules state that the car ahead at the apex has the right to drive to the edge of the track on exit. The reason Palmer got a penalty when someone else didn't was Palmer was just behind at the apex.

Rosberg pushed Hamilton wide on exit multiple times over the 3 years, no one cared, I didn't care, because it's how it works and has ALWAYS worked in F1. He did it in Canada, did it in Bahrain iirc in 2014 on one of his passes and has done it elsewhere, maybe Cota, etc. This is normal driving. Hamilton closed the door on him because he's entirely legally able to and every single driver, Rosberg included has done that. When Rosberg does it, Hamilton gets out of the way and doesn't complain about it once because that is racing. When Hamilton does it to Rosberg, Rosberg says he intentionally chose not to avoid an accident.... or literally the same statement as he chose to hit him on purpose.



It's entirely different to what Hamilton did. Stroll was 100% behind Hamilton at EVERY moment and in particular when he moved across the track. Stroll could actually have not moved at all from his line and Hamilton defending the inside line wouldn't have hit or effected Stroll at all. Stroll hoped to get the run and get the speed to pull alongside so kept going that way but he didn't have to.

Here Max was absolutely alongside Vettel and had he not moved Vettel would absolutely have hit him.

Bringing up one similar but not the same situation and then also bringing up a completely different situation in which Rosberg was punished and universally held accountable except by those who hate Hamilton isn't helping your cause here.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131590/fia-explains-why-alonso-escaped-spa-penalty



Now fair enough with this statement from Palmer


https://drivetribe.com/p/fernando-a..._AEdRkmxsTRnYF-78w?iid=eqm8bYLbS26UrGJxX7qGNw




It's open to exploitation in that if you do a late move you should in reality brake enough to take a tight enough line to leave room, but if you brake late so you can only take a wide line if you brake late enough to get ahead at the apex the move will be legal. But if you do that and you don't make it ahead at the apex you'll basically just smash the guy on the outside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CYI8Hc1rL8

However this isn't what happened at Spa, Rosberg got partially alongside on the outside down the straight. Hamilton was clearly well ahead at the apex, Rosberg had ZERO right to space on exit, everyone knows that, the rules have always been that but Charlie reiterated them to the drivers in 2013. Rosberg had no right to any space and yet got a fair amount, he had plenty of space and time to slip in behind Hamilton easily. That crash was both actually 100% Rosberg's fault and the team held him fully responsible making a public statement that he'd be disciplined and this was widely reported to be a 200k euro fine.

The only reason the stewards didn't penalise him was the team didn't make a complaint to the stewards, if it had been a Ferrari that did it or had it done to by another teams car then there would have been a penalty. Teams have no reason to push for a penalty against their own cars and stewards 100% take into account if someone is complaining about something happened when considering investigating/penalising things.

 

[gord]

Looking at that clip, I think if Max had managed to hit the brakes in time you'd actually have had Kimi and Vettel colliding anyway. Vettel's trajectory is cruise missile like and he has no idea or expectation for Kimi to be where he is. Vettel is to blame but I can see Lewis and Max doing exactly the same in his position. If you've had an average start you defend the first corner by squeezing the inside guy's angle.

 

[413x]

Yeah vettels fault all day long. And I agree. He knew it.
Fairly good race. Obviously because of the rain.

I bet gt999 or whatever the username is loved it

That clip makes his manoeuvre look even worse. And yeah looks like he was still heading at the same vector even at point of contact. No turning away at all. May well have hit Kimi

 

[Steampunk]

Vettel is to blame but I can see Lewis and Max doing exactly the same in his position. If you've had an average start you defend the first corner by squeezing the inside guy's angle.

Not in the rain, and not into the first corner. You can see how Hamilton nearly overtakes Vettel into the first corner, but then backs out to take second place before Vettel spins out. Hamilton has learned that you can't win the race by the first corner but you can lose it there. I think that's why I'm so impressed by Hamilton this year. His driving is really fast and aggressive, but he's got a sensible, tactical head on his shoulders this year. He's not chucking his opportunities away by doing dumb, high risk moves like Vettel is.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

Not in the rain, and not into the first corner. You can see how Hamilton nearly overtakes Vettel into the first corner, but then backs out to take second place before Vettel spins out. Hamilton has learned that you can't win the race by the first corner but you can lose it there. I think that's why I'm so impressed by Hamilton this year. His driving is really fast and aggressive, but he's got a sensible, tactical head on his shoulders this year. He's not chucking his opportunities away by doing dumb, high risk moves like Vettel is.

It was the same last year mostly. Hamilton was pretty sensible and only pushed against rosberg when he knew they both had equal stakes in the championship. Hamilton has grown a lot and for all of his 'I want to win and I am a racer' attitude he plays the long game better than most these days.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Two staggering facts to come out of the Grand Prix:

1. This was the first time that both Ferraris retired in the first lap
2. Hamilton has only ever won from outside the first two rows twice

 

[Steampunk]

Two staggering facts to come out of the Grand Prix:

1. This was the first time that both Ferraris retired in the first lap
2. Hamilton has only ever won from outside the first two rows twice

That second one might be a bit misleading when you consider he holds the qualifying record ie he's usually qualifying in the front two rows, so he never gets the opportunity to win from third row or further back. If you're fast enough to win, you're usually fast enough to start of the front two rows.

 

[timmeh]

Two staggering facts to come out of the Grand Prix:

1. This was the first time that both Ferraris retired in the first lap
2. Hamilton has only ever won from outside the first two rows twice

It was only the second time in 11 years that both Ferrari's have failed to finish a race. Mexico 2015 was the other.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

That second one might be a bit misleading when you consider he holds the qualifying record ie he's usually qualifying in the front two rows, so he never gets the opportunity to win from third row or further back. If you're fast enough to win, you're usually fast enough to start of the front two rows.

Yes. I know what you're saying but even so.. since 2007 he's only ever won from beyond the first row twice. That's pretty amazing.

The other win being the British Grand Prix a few years ago.

 

[cu3ed]

Any on board video for Hamilton..he must have lit that start up.