SNP to break up Britian?

[aln]

What makes them think they'd even get that? Is Alex Salmond some sort of super amazing wonder leader who once freed from the terrible clutches of London will turn Scotland into the worlds most prosperous country or something?

It's not really a 'local' democracy is it? Much of Scotland is hundreds of miles from Edinburgh. I'd imagine life in Edinburgh is more similar to London than it is to life in, say, Thurso. The whole 'London rule' thing strikes me as such as daft thing to get so het up about - its just a geographical location. It's not as if the Scottish have had no influence in UK politics is it, heck over the last few decades a Scotsman has held the highest elected office in the Union!

Most of the arguments for splitting seem to stem from Nationalistic pride rather than credible and rational political and economic arguments. Most of the important economic questions are unanswered and probably won't be answered until after the Referendum anyway.

It's just being optimistic. Theres no guarantees that anything would be better, but there is sentiment within the yes camp that we could be doing better, though that is unlikely within the constraints of the UK.

Personally I think all politics should be local politics, however if you're going to argue the difference, 70% of the Scottish population live within the lowlands, while a sizable chunk of the UK lives in the South East, it's probably less than half of the Scottish population bias.

Edinburgh is still a lot closer than London and I suspect the 30% of the population not counted within commutable of our two biggest cities will matter quite a bit more to Scotland than being 2.4% of the population of the UK.

Those south of the border might worry that they'll be lacking 9-10% of their national taxation, but since that should be spread back equally, what difference will it really make? Scotland leaving could be good for Scotland, but it's hardly going to drastically change the course of the rUK.

Personally I believe that the SNP actually do a good job and the sun might as well shine out of Alex Salmonds **** when you compare him to the competition, however in the case of independence, one would assume other viable parties would rise from the ashes of the pro-union camps.

 

[PooBrain]

Scotland on it's own will end up like the Republic of Ireland....buggered!

 

[StriderX]

Scotland on it's own will end up like the Republic of Ireland....buggered!

Equally buggered as the UK you mean?

Osborne is killing his own team, the SNP could just sit and casually do as they please, while the "Together" campaign deconstructs itself.

Its rather sad really, but you don't become a politician without realising it.

 

[semi-pro waster]

Personally I believe that the SNP actually do a good job and the sun might as well shine out of Alex Salmonds **** when you compare him to the competition, however in the case of independence, one would assume other viable parties would rise from the ashes of the pro-union camps.

Despite not having lived in Scotland for the past four years I've still got a lot of interest in what goes on there and I think Mr Salmond or perhaps I should say the SNP has done a great deal of positive work within the constrains of the Scottish Parliament. They're not perfect by any stretch but I think they've done at least as good a job as could realistically be expected and probably a bit better than most anticipated.

However I'd have to admit to some doubts as to whether Mr Salmond has found his level and would struggle to take the next step up with greater autonomy, he's a great orator and politician but are the limitations placed on him currently actually helping him? It's possible that he'd be able to raise his game yet further but I fear he's about reached his peak and that if Scotland does get independence that a new leader would be required quite quickly with the ambition and ability to actually make it successful.

 

[eddiemcgarrigle]

People forget that this is not a vote for the SNP but rather a vote for Scotland. Upon Scotland voting 'YES', the Scottish Parliament would be wound down and a new vote cast to determine who we want in power. While the SNP are at the forefront of the push for independence, they will not necessarily be the party who decide what we will do post independence, that would be up to the voters.

As far as I am aware, setting ourselves up similarly to the Norwegians would be a good way to go. Norway didn't suffer at all due to the slush fund they had built up with their oil sales. No reason to think that we Scots couldn't do the same.

 

[aln]

Despite not having lived in Scotland for the past four years I've still got a lot of interest in what goes on there and I think Mr Salmond or perhaps I should say the SNP has done a great deal of positive work within the constrains of the Scottish Parliament. They're not perfect by any stretch but I think they've done at least as good a job as could realistically be expected and probably a bit better than most anticipated.

However I'd have to admit to some doubts as to whether Mr Salmond has found his level and would struggle to take the next step up with greater autonomy, he's a great orator and politician but are the limitations placed on him currently actually helping him? It's possible that he'd be able to raise his game yet further but I fear he's about reached his peak and that if Scotland does get independence that a new leader would be required quite quickly with the ambition and ability to actually make it successful.

I don't know, I think he's actually rather astute but it's definitely a case of the party rather than the man.

Similar arguments are poised against the likes of the libs, etc. The negative argument of you cannot do the job because you do not have experience. Makes sense, but let me ask you this, between the swings of labour and conservative Governments, how many at the decision level have experience?

We muddle with fresh faces making terrible decisions for us all the time, I think the SNP has more than earned their shot.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Norway didn't suffer at all due to the slush fund they had built up with their oil sales. No reason to think that we Scots couldn't do the same.

No reason? Really? NO reason?

Other than the enormously huge reason - Norway did such a thing decades ago when North Sea Oil was a growth industry, not now when it's in decline.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Personally I think all politics should be local politics,

Devolution for Inverness then?

Those south of the border might worry that they'll be lacking 9-10% of their national taxation, but since that should be spread back equally, what difference will it really make? Scotland leaving could be good for Scotland, but it's hardly going to drastically change the course of the rUK.

I'd imagine it will have very little impact on the course of rUK. That doesn't stop it being a huge shame that a nationalstic, nostalgic sentiment might change the future of our respective countries, though.

There are some sound arguments on both sides but I'd imagine the majority of the population won't be voting on the issues, they'll be voting for altogether more shallow and nationalistic reasons. Which is a massive shame.

Scotland is a fantastic place and as a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, I'm proud that it is part of the country I live in. If it was to split because it was genuinelly better for the people then I'd have less of a problem with it, but it's mostly about 'Anyone but England' really, isn't it?

I also live hundreds of miles from London but I don't get totally hung up on the idea that parliament hasn't been built down the road from me because it doesn't actually matter where it is provided there is representation. Which there is - there are Scottish MP's in Parliament and the UK as a whole has been led by Scots for the majority of the previous 15 years! Ironically Scotland has considerably more power over its affairs than, say, Cumbria or Devon has over its affairs! There is a Scottish parliament with many powers - there is no English equivilent.

Many people seem to think that Independance is some sort of utopia and that as soon as it happens Scotland will miraculously escape the current economic climate and all the wrongs will suddenly be righted. This seems massively short sighted. The problems will still exist, it's laughable that the idea that it's all going wrong because of 'London rule' seems to be the most popular one..

 

[Number_25]

I hope Wales devolves from the UK.

 

[Superficial]

No reason? Really? NO reason?

Other than the enormously huge reason - Norway did such a thing decades ago when North Sea Oil was a growth industry, not now when it's in decline.

Indeed.....


section 5 - Page 13:

http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_273150_en.pdf

GERS w/ CPPR almost final 2013

We must also factor in that this document cannot discuss issues that are not finalised (or things we cannot know)e.g. an Independent Scotland's borrowing rates - the UK is current around 1.8% - Scotland would have around 22% of it's GDP based on oil income...check the graph on page 13 to see how much oil income can fluctuate. Scary stuff.

it would have a slightly lower debt level than rUK and there is discussion of around 1 billion to 50% of the current £4.4B surplus (which Scotland contributed more than it received) being put towards a fund instead of being used to pay off debt (as a pre referendum rule of thumb)but how much will be offset by the extra costs involved in being separate from the UK I don't know. Things like staffing embassies (even if we share them as has been suggested), maintaining an independent defence force.....I, personally still don't know what would have about funding northern Ireland - running around at around £9 billion per year to the UK I think - is Scotland walking away from that?.

 

[semi-pro waster]

I don't know, I think he's actually rather astute but it's definitely a case of the party rather than the man.

Similar arguments are poised against the likes of the libs, etc. The negative argument of you cannot do the job because you do not have experience. Makes sense, but let me ask you this, between the swings of labour and conservative Governments, how many at the decision level have experience?

We muddle with fresh faces making terrible decisions for us all the time, I think the SNP has more than earned their shot.

I think he's a consumate politician but that term might not be entirely flattering depending on your views.

My argument isn't that he or the SNP don't have the experience - I'm well aware that they haven't had the opportunity. My doubt is whether they have the ability should the opportunity present itself - I'd prioritise ability over experience since if you've got the ability you can do the job. Having the experience is just a track record you can point to that shows you've done it, there's plenty of people who've got experience at a role but are found lacking in the talent or application department - experience can help supplement ability or make up for it to a certain extent but it's not a replacement for ability. You can say they've earned a chance and that may be true but it's a fairly sizeable risk, if people are aware of that and knowing the stakes would be able to live with the consequences then that's fine.

 

[aln]

Devolution for Inverness then?

If Inverness desired devolution, I would support it. However, there is a difference between what Inverness is within Scotland and what Scotland is within the UK. Scotland is already a nation state.

I'd imagine it will have very little impact on the course of rUK. That doesn't stop it being a huge shame that a nationalstic, nostalgic sentiment might change the future of our respective countries, though.

I don't see why it's a shame. It'd be a shame if we were to fail, but if we don't, it'd be a good thing. In fact where we diverge will be a great reference point for each side of the border and it would be easy to vote with your feet.

There are some sound arguments on both sides but I'd imagine the majority of the population won't be voting on the issues, they'll be voting for altogether more shallow and nationalistic reasons. Which is a massive shame.

I can't help agree with that and I find it a shame. However I dare say tactics coming from the no camp, which seems to be leading in the polls, take considerable advantage of that. The suggestion that Scotland is too small to go it alone and isn't economically viable as a state is outrageous and only throws fuel on the independence fire.

Scotland is a fantastic place and as a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, I'm proud that it is part of the country I live in. If it was to split because it was genuinelly better for the people then I'd have less of a problem with it, but it's mostly about 'Anyone but England' really, isn't it?

Do you honestly think Northern Ireland would not have been a better place if it was part of Ireland proper or independent, rather than the essentially the poorest area within the UK? What we did there is an argument against the UK.

I also live hundreds of miles from London but I don't get totally hung up on the idea that parliament hasn't been built down the road from me because it doesn't actually matter where it is provided there is representation.

I wouldn't disagree if investment in the country was fair. It doesn't seem that way and when you hear figures like London transport investment gets 27x more investment per capita, or compare the prosperity within the UK, then you really need to ask yourself what the hell is going on. The imbalance is outragous, but nobody within the m25 sees a problem with that.

Which there is - there are Scottish MP's in Parliament and the UK as a whole has been led by Scots for the majority of the previous 15 years! Ironically Scotland has considerably more power over its affairs than, say, Cumbria or Devon has over its affairs! There is a Scottish parliament with many powers - there is no English equivilent.

First of all, Scotland is a nation within a union, neither Cumbria of Devon have quite as much claim but again, I believe it the right of self-determination.

Secondly, the north of England is in a proper state compared to the south. I would argue Scotland fairs at around national average solely because of our nationalstic tendencies, and if we were just another part of England, I imagine we'd be a lot worse off.

 

[Sheff]

I hope Wales devolves from the UK.

I genuinely think Wales are going about it in such a way that they'll become independent before Scotland does.

As the Welsh Assembly are pushing for more and more devolved powers they'll either reach a point where they are satisfied with their situation or be able to prove that they are capable of becoming an independent country.

 

[Superficial]

I can't help agree with that and I find it a shame. However I dare say tactics coming from the no camp, which seems to be leading in the polls, take considerable advantage of that. The suggestion that Scotland is too small to go it alone and isn't economically viable as a state is outrageous and only throws fuel on the independence fire.

Is this actually true though? If so who is saying it?

I thought the Prime Minister had already said Scotland can financially support itself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-17052800

"I'm not saying that Scotland couldn't make it on her own, of course Scotland could, just as England could - but ideally hope that this doesn't happen."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21394184


"I have no time for those who say there is no way Scotland could go it alone," he said.

"The real question is whether it should - whether Scotland is stronger, safer, richer and fairer within our United Kingdom or outside it. And here, I believe, the answer is clear."

 

[aln]

I think he's a consumate politician but that term might not be entirely flattering depending on your views.

My argument isn't that he or the SNP don't have the experience - I'm well aware that they haven't had the opportunity. My doubt is whether they have the ability should the opportunity present itself - I'd prioritise ability over experience since if you've got the ability you can do the job. Having the experience is just a track record you can point to that shows you've done it, there's plenty of people who've got experience at a role but are found lacking in the talent or application department - experience can help supplement ability or make up for it to a certain extent but it's not a replacement for ability. You can say they've earned a chance and that may be true but it's a fairly sizeable risk, if people are aware of that and knowing the stakes would be able to live with the consequences then that's fine.

The SNP itself don't really matter in the long term. Likely the part would die or be replaced with something akin to the Scottish Social Democrats(whether in name or not) and members within the party would either join the new party or align with others parties as they'd no longer be united on a single important issue.

The question you're really posing is whether or not Scotland itself has the talent. I think she does and I would suggest than running for office for an indepedent Scotland would be more enticing than doing so in a devolved Scotland.

 

[aln]

Is this actually true though? If so who is saying it?

I thought the Prime Minister had already said Scotland can financially support itself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-17052800

"I'm not saying that Scotland couldn't make it on her own, of course Scotland could, just as England could - but ideally hope that this doesn't happen."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21394184


"I have no time for those who say there is no way Scotland could go it alone," he said.

"The real question is whether it should - whether Scotland is stronger, safer, richer and fairer within our United Kingdom or outside it. And here, I believe, the answer is clear."

It was said a number of times, I'm not going to go pulling quotes because denying it is actually ridiculous. Whether or not it comes directly from the PM isn't entirely relevant but you will note there has been a change in tact as negative campaigning was actually seeing support grow for the split.

 

[Superficial]

It was said a number of times, I'm not going to go pulling quotes because denying it is actually ridiculous. Whether or not it comes directly from the PM isn't entirely relevant but you will note there has been a change in tact as negative campaigning was actually seeing support grow for the split.

It's not about whether it was said really - we all know that it has at the very least been implied to put it mildly, by god knows how many ignorant idiots but it is about WHO said and in what context and to an extent whether they are still saying it.

it is one of the most common things I read from members of the yes campaign but I don't know whom, of any relevance, actually says this.

 

[Biohazard]

What makes them think they'd even get that? Is Alex Salmond some sort of super amazing wonder leader who once freed from the terrible clutches of London will turn Scotland into the worlds most prosperous country or something?

That they feel they get it now, with Holyrood, and the decisions it currently makes for them. Decisions made locally, with our nuances in mind, tend to be more fitting policies.

Most people want decisions made that effect Scotland to come from Scotland. Given the past decades of Westminster rule it's not hard to see why.

It's not really a 'local' democracy is it? Much of Scotland is hundreds of miles from Edinburgh. I'd imagine life in Edinburgh is more similar to London than it is to life in, say, Thurso. The whole 'London rule' thing strikes me as such as daft thing to get so het up about - its just a geographical location. It's not as if the Scottish have had no influence in UK politics is it, heck over the last few decades a Scotsman has held the highest elected office in the Union!

Far more localised than the South East of England.

Most of the arguments for splitting seem to stem from Nationalistic pride rather than credible and rational political and economic arguments. Most of the important economic questions are unanswered and probably won't be answered until after the Referendum anyway.

I didn't realise you had such a masterful view of the debate!

 

[Biohazard]

That doesn't stop it being a huge shame that a nationalstic, nostalgic sentiment might change the future of our respective countries, though.

I think it's a huge shame that a nationalistic, nostalgic British sentiment might stop Scotland receiving the good governance it is almost screaming out for, instead cementing our position to a fiscal economic and social policy that is designed for London that damages Scotland time and time again.

Nor is the North Sea in decline, it's currently riding a BOOM.

This is why debating these issues here are pointless, people just have no realisation of Scotland or its peoples.

 

[Biohazard]

Despite not having lived in Scotland for the past four years I've still got a lot of interest in what goes on there and I think Mr Salmond or perhaps I should say the SNP has done a great deal of positive work within the constrains of the Scottish Parliament. They're not perfect by any stretch but I think they've done at least as good a job as could realistically be expected and probably a bit better than most anticipated.

However I'd have to admit to some doubts as to whether Mr Salmond has found his level and would struggle to take the next step up with greater autonomy, he's a great orator and politician but are the limitations placed on him currently actually helping him? It's possible that he'd be able to raise his game yet further but I fear he's about reached his peak and that if Scotland does get independence that a new leader would be required quite quickly with the ambition and ability to actually make it successful.

Alex Salmond has stated previously that he will retire after the referendum irrespective of the outcome.

Neither has he reached 'peak', as if his ambition and drive for Scottish success somehow stops and ends with the referendum process. He has made Holyrood a resounding success more than any other political party; if he remained why would he be almost inept at Governance then?

Makes little sense, given that he is one of the most astute politicians of our times.