SNP to break up Britian?

[semi-pro waster]

Alex Salmond has stated previously that he will retire after the referendum irrespective of the outcome.

Neither has he reached 'peak', as if his ambition and drive for Scottish success somehow stops and ends with the referendum process. He has made Holyrood a resounding success more than any other political party; if he remained why would he be almost inept at Governance then?

Makes little sense, given that he is one of the most astute politicians of our times.

Have you ever heard of the theory that you're promoted until the level you become incompetent? Same basic thing here but we're not going to know properly until/unless it is tested.

 

[atpbx]

Is there any consideration by the independence party to the share of the national debt they will be liable to take in the event that they win.

How does that square with the fact that as it stands it is currently running a 7 billion pound deficit year on year?

 

[[TW]Fox]

That they feel they get it now, with Holyrood, and the decisions it currently makes for them. Decisions made locally, with our nuances in mind, tend to be more fitting policies.

Most people want decisions made that effect Scotland to come from Scotland. Given the past decades of Westminster rule it's not hard to see why.

A bad decision from Scotland is no different to a bad decision from London, though. Why does it make so much difference? It's not as if the UK is that big anyway, it's not as if decisions are being made from Australia, is it? Decisions are being made partly (yes, partly) from a Parliament thats just a 4 hour trainride away. It's not in another world.

What is it about the Scottish lowlands thats so completely disparate from other areas of the UK?

It's symobilism really, isn't it? What are you going to do in 5 years time when you can no longer just blame everything on London, Biohazard?

Why do you constantly ignore the fact that it was Scottish people who were in charge of the UK for the majority of the last 15 years? I don't have a problem with the fact we were led by a Scot - so why do you have such a problem with the fact we are currently led by an Englishman?

Nor is the North Sea in decline, it's currently riding a BOOM.

Errrr... the actual output of the North Sea is nothing like it was as its peak and it never will be again.

This is why debating these issues here are pointless, people just have no realisation of Scotland or its peoples.

We are all British and we are not as different as you desperately try to portray. It's not as if you cross into another world entirely as soon as you drive past Gretna.

 

[Biohazard]

Have you ever heard of the theory that you're promoted until the level you become incompetent? Same basic thing here but we're not going to know properly until/unless it is tested.

Yes, but it seems to hold little water. Nor do I see much relevance, you clearly aren't an SNP supporter, but there can be little disagreement that he is one of the most consummate politician, party and national leader on these islands. That isn't a guarantee of success, but it can hardly be to his detriment either which seems to be the implication.

 

[Biohazard]

Is there any consideration by the independence party to the share of the national debt they will be liable to take in the event that they win.

How does that square with the fact that as it stands it is currently running a 7 billion pound deficit year on year?

Yes.

 

[Biohazard]

A bad decision from Scotland is no different to a bad decision from London, though. Why does it make so much difference? It's not as if the UK is that big anyway, it's not as if decisions are being made from Australia, is it? Decisions are being made partly (yes, partly) from a Parliament thats just a 4 hour trainride away. It's not in another world.

What is it about the Scottish lowlands thats so completely disparate from other areas of the UK?

It's symobilism really, isn't it? What are you going to do in 5 years time when you can no longer just blame everything on London, Biohazard?

Why do you constantly ignore the fact that it was Scottish people who were in charge of the UK for the majority of the last 15 years? I don't have a problem with the fact we were led by a Scot - so why do you have such a problem with the fact we are currently led by an Englishman?

Straw men attacks aside, we seem to suffer continually with policy that isn't right for Scotland. It isn't just geography, but differing values principles and politiks. This isn't blame, but an acceptance that people who live in Scotland trust Holyrood to act in its interests as opposed to Westminster, and that Scots are becoming slowly disenfranchised with a political system that returns Government's it has not voted for; that they coincide to the will of England from time to time is just that, coincidental. The nationality of party or Government leaders is irrelevant.

Errrr... the actual output of the North Sea is nothing like it was as its peak and it never will be again.

No one said output, just North Sea decline. Which it isn't as we see a boom in investment upwards of 50 years in some cases, with one and a half trillion pounds remaining as an asset base at current prices. We could help England pay its debt in the advent of Scottish independence.

We are all British and we are not as different as you desperately try to portray. It's not as if you cross into another world entirely as soon as you drive past Gretna.

Not everyone sees it as you do, and British first in Scotland is quite a rare thing these days.

 

[atpbx]

Yes.

So they have plans in place to implement 7 billion pounds worth of cuts on a population of 5 million people?

 

[Biohazard]

So they have plans in place to implement 7 billion pounds worth of cuts on a population of 5 million people?

Scots spending would face similar pressures as to now, but it's very unlikely that cuts to that extent would take place.

 

[Biohazard]

Back up after vacuous Better Together legal attacks.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Straw men attacks aside, we seem to suffer continually with policy that isn't right for Scotland.

You could equally argue we have policy that isn't right for England, too. Perhaps policy isn't right for Scotland right now because it isn't right for any of us. I'm struggling to make my point here but I think you can see what I mean.

The recurring theme seems to be that the feeling in the Yes camp is that everything thats wrong at the moment is wrong because its all Londons fault and Edinburgh will sort it all out. This seems to be breathtakingly short sighted.

Not everyone sees it as you do, and British first in Scotland is quite a rare thing these days.

Becase of nationalistic ideals, presumably?

 

[Biohazard]

You could equally argue we have policy that isn't right for England, too. Perhaps policy isn't right for Scotland right now because it isn't right for any of us. I'm struggling to make my point here but I think you can see what I mean.

The recurring theme seems to be that the feeling in the Yes camp is that everything thats wrong at the moment is wrong because its all Londons fault and Edinburgh will sort it all out. This seems to be breathtakingly short sighted.

You make your point just fine, and you are correct. I don't believe the policy is correct for the entirety of England either, but there is an option for the people who live in Scotland to make their own choices and deviate from something they have resoundingly rejected but are forced to comply with in any event.

It's far more nuanced than that, but certainly repetitive past mistakes from our current constitutional arrangement will feature in the argument to deviate from it. That is inevitable, but it's just as much about Scottish success and future.

Becase of nationalistic ideals, presumably?

We're dealing with two sets of competing nationalisms, once that has been accepted it becomes a lot easier to discuss it. You can't deride the existence, or resurgence or popularity of one without dismissing it on the opposing side.

Nationalism in itself isn't how it is portrayed, or apparently portrayed here, it is quite an encompassing thing particularly when it comes to the people who ascribe, or identify, with it.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I appreciate my views are biased because I rather like Scotland and perhaps selfishly like it being part of the UK as a result. Many of the best parts of the country I live in are in Scotland.

I'm off there again in a week

 

[Biohazard]

We're not going to stop you or anyone else coming to visit, or be any less welcoming, if we have independence. If anything, it should make Scotland more vibrant than it already is. Just because we would no longer share a parliament doesn't mean an end to everything, I'm sure we'd all still be posting on Oc[something] for a long time to come.

 

[Nico_Joey]

Personally i feel its just a shame really, both sides from my point of view make some valid points, that its come down to Scottish government feeling its only option is exile from the U.K is just disappointing. And that their is some semblance of 'those bloody englishmen' sentiment within certain groups in Scotland is juvenile.

I also keep asking why now? And have yet to find any convincing argument that doesn't devolve into, the two reason why anyone does anything within the guise of altruistic objectives, money and or power.

 

[Biohazard]

Personally i feel its just a shame really, both sides from my point of view make some valid points, that its come down to Scottish government feeling its only option is exile from the U.K is just disappointing. And that their is some semblance of 'those bloody englishmen' sentiment within certain groups in Scotland is juvenile.

Can you point to any 'those bloody Englishmen' comments or sentiment?

It's this constant portrayal of it being exclusive or significantly witnessed on one side, ie Scots nationalist, that is probably more damaging to Scotland staying in the Union than it leaving.

I also keep asking why now? And have yet to find any convincing argument that doesn't devolve into, the two reason why anyone does anything within the guise of altruistic objectives, money and or power.

It's how events have happened, quite clearly.

It's money and power each way, again it isn't exclusive.

 

[Nico_Joey]

It's how events have happened, quite clearly.

It's money and power each way, again it isn't exclusive.

Indeed, i didn't mean to suppose that only Scotland was vying for power/money, but i just feel like someone/ones going to be getting a great deal from independance and its neither England nor Scotland, but i admit i haven't looked closely at the subject as i don't really have a say in the matter.

And about the 'bloody english' comments, from the times i have listen to/read about scottish people vehemently for independence, the general impression (maybe wrongly) is that they are somehow oppressed as a people for being part of the U.K.

And the relationship is not the joking make fun of each other, that we have with France or Germany sometimes (i.e. struggling to find a cliche about scotland, but England of course is playfully made fun of sometimes because of our imperialist history), and not blind hatred that can come from certain groups in Ireland, but it certainly feels more aggressive than is warranted or needed with such a high profile issue.

But its just my 2c anyways, as i said, having no say in the matter I'l just sit back and see what happens, for better or worse.

 

[semi-pro waster]

Yes, but it seems to hold little water.

You work in the civil service and you've not seen many people promoted above their ability? C'est incroyable.

Nor do I see much relevance, you clearly aren't an SNP supporter, but there can be little disagreement that he is one of the most consummate politician, party and national leader on these islands. That isn't a guarantee of success, but it can hardly be to his detriment either which seems to be the implication.

I've already said as much to aln, I don't need to be an SNP supporter to recognise their qualities or failings as appropriate. Mr Salmond is a consumate politician and the SNP have done a good job (even a very good job) in the Scottish Parliament.

If you think the implication was that his success is to his detriment then that's a curious reading of what I've put. I've simply expressed a doubt as to whether he would be the leader that Scotland needed should independence become a reality - that's not a reflection on what he has done but a musing about what he may be capable of. However if he does follow through with his intention to retire after the referendum then his potential is an irrelevance because it will fall to someone else anyway.

 

[ubersonic]

I hope Wales devolves from the UK.

Jesus I don't, Wales depends heavily on UK/EU subsidization to survive (granted its not one way, I.E England needs our energy/reservoir/agricultural surplus). Becoming independent would be a straight jump back to the "dark times" of the 80's.

 

[aln]

You work in the civil service and you've not seen many people promoted above their ability? C'est incroyable.



I've already said as much to aln, I don't need to be an SNP supporter to recognise their qualities or failings as appropriate. Mr Salmond is a consumate politician and the SNP have done a good job (even a very good job) in the Scottish Parliament.

If you think the implication was that his success is to his detriment then that's a curious reading of what I've put. I've simply expressed a doubt as to whether he would be the leader that Scotland needed should independence become a reality - that's not a reflection on what he has done but a musing about what he may be capable of. However if he does follow through with his intention to retire after the referendum then his potential is an irrelevance because it will fall to someone else anyway.

There is a belief that AS is planning on retirement after the ordeal one way or another. Obviously if he wins, I would except him to be part of the transition stage, but I still think judging our competence based on him alone is folly.

Also it based on your feelings, which I disagree wth, both ends of that argument suck.

 

[Docaroo]

You could equally argue we have policy that isn't right for England, too. Perhaps policy isn't right for Scotland right now because it isn't right for any of us. I'm struggling to make my point here but I think you can see what I mean.

Whilst I agree with the point you are trying to make, the problem is that England voted for your government and those policies.

Scotland did not vote for a Conservative government to make these particular policies and cuts and yet we have them imposed on us. Now that is not fair.

At least in England, you actually voted for that government so are living with the consequences of your voting preference.

Personally i feel its just a shame really, both sides from my point of view make some valid points, that its come down to Scottish government feeling its only option is exile from the U.K is just disappointing.

Well, I'm sorry - but exiting the UK is our only choice. There is NO chance we would ever get more devolved powers from Westminster (look at N.I. devolution talks recently). The only option is Independence.

I would vote to stay in the UK if Scotland was given full fiscal autonomy and economic powers - but that won't happen. Ever.

So, it's a yes for me.

And yes, the future is uncertain with independence - but you know the only thing that scares me more than going it alone is staying in the UK in this current model of depravity and poverty which UK government policies only exacerbate. I would be so whole-heartedly disappointed if my fellow countrymen do not take this opportunity to vote for independence. The future if we vote No does not bear thinking of.