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Not knocking what your saying here, but surely speaker load would have an effect on how much power is required ? If I've missed the point feel free to explain.
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So, you want a new Hi-Fi?
- Thread starter DRZ
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Not knocking what your saying here, but surely speaker load would have an effect on how much power is required ? If I've missed the point feel free to explain.
Associate
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No it's not all about power but you didn't read/understand what I said. I said that will both have the same sort of performance, it's very easy to make an amplifier, it's not hard electronics. It's why I was designing and building discrete amplifiers when I was 17. And what does cars have anything to do with amplifier power?
You misunderstand me, anyone spend you money how you want I just want people to know they don't need to pay £10,000 for get something good.
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Double post!
Associate
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Not knocking what your saying here, but surely speaker load would have an effect on how much power is required ? If I've missed the point feel free to explain.
Yes you may have more sensitive speakers that don't require 1W depending on how close you to them the size and many other variations which I cba to type out on an ipad!
Caporegime
No one is asking you to pay thousands to get something good. This is why you demo before you buy. If you believe all the advertising stuff then that is your prerogative, stupid or not.
Associate
He has an Ipad yet is posting about people buying overprices products when a cheaper alternative is available with (in his view) no discernible quality improvement? Hah. Ironic.
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I just trying to help people by telling people the whole story, I must ask you you have any technical knowledge of audio systems including how speakers amplifiers work including basic electronic principles?
If you think there isn't a difference then you must be blind.
Associate
I believe there is a difference between an Ipad and the alternatives that are available, yes. I believe the Ipad is worse. There is quite clearly a massive difference in sound that different Hi-Fi separate equipment produce.
Associate
Fair enough. So amplifiers output is only part of the story. I feel at this point I should admit I own a naim amp
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For some it might be, but I don't think a lot of people understand its brilliance as with all apple products. I also don't think they go well with PC enthusiasts! But that's another story!
Yes there are differences in sound quality but they may be not where you expect them!
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Fair enough. So amplifiers output is only part of the story. I feel at this point I should admit I own a naim amp
The amplifier is a small part of the story, the speakers and position of the speakers are massively more important.
Associate
OT if I remember rightly gswaudio, didn't you say you've recently started work for an audio electronics manufacturer? Is it a pa system manufacturer? Because your views would suggest such.
Caporegime
No, but I never claimed to, nor own £2,000 amplifiers.
I own a Musical Fidelity X-200 that i paid £250 for from eBay, I trust my ears, not what the specification says with regard to number of watts.
In my front room I use a Pioneer VSX2012/LX55 and no, i didn't pay full price. I buy what I think is value for money.
Do I think the Musical Fidelity is notably better sounding than my Pioneer in stereo? Not really, it would be hard press to tell with my speakers so I have disconnected it and use it upstairs in my bedroom for my computer.
I trust my ears, not numbers claimed, be it 30w or 120w.
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OT if I remember rightly gswaudio, didn't you say you've recently started work for an audio electronics manufacturer? Is it a pa system manufacturer? Because your views would suggest such.
No i work for one of the biggest and most well known British 'high end' hifi manufacturers.
In hifi a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, dealers know this. By saying things like 'like a muscle car with 500hp and can't put the power down' its easy and seems sensible to say that about an amplifier and so someone who is buying an amplifier perhaps for the first time can't be blamed for believing that. But so much of the time these little analogies are false and are used to convince people something is better and they believe because its very hard to judge sound quality well. This is because audio memory is very short so even if you use a switch to flip between two prices of equipment in blind tests its still quite difficult to remember what the one previous sounded like. This with other reasons is the way audio manufacturers get away with the, sometimes, outrages claims they make.
But I say all of this, and it makes me thing who cares? If someone pays £10,000 for a system and it is in fact not as good as another cheaper one but the user loves it who cares? For me sometimes bad audio which is easily detectable can be just as good as something awesome, because for me it's about the emotion of music and not analysing it. However like analysing it and building better equipment which incurs more emotion into me is enjoyable!
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Associate
Sorry I made the wrong assumption. Your intentions maybe honourable but your original posts do read as sweeping generalizations. And if you do indeed work for a hifi manufacturer you should realised that such remarks will always be treated as trolling.
Associate
This sticky could do with a massive update if the OP is still about?
There does seem to to be a fair load of total and utter bull**** within 'hi-fi' some of it obvious and some of it less so...
I'd hope that most people on here are fully aware that that a gold plated network cable doesn't do anything to improve the depth of colours on the BBC website... similar myths seem to be readily lapped up in the world of hi-fi though
anyway I figured I'd contribute a general hi-fi rant/POV to the thread
replacing the knob on your amp with a wooden one, buying an expensive kettle lead to power your set up, drawing a green line around the edge of your CDs, buying expensive HDMI cables... all ought to fit into the full retard category and make as much sense to anyone with the slightest bit of technical knowledge as a gold plated network cable enhancing colours on a website....
speaker cables/interconnects... there is plenty of woo in this area... at first glance it seems marginally more plausible than the above claims, HDMI is obviously BS as its a digital signal... though it turns out ordinary copper cable is perfectly capable of carrying an analogue signal. Anyway there is much more thin copper cable on the inside of your speakers than the short, thick bit of cable going from your amp to them...
expensive CD players etc.. again a load of BS.. you can pay a bit more for some features if you like but its a digital source... some people might have fallen into believing their golden ears can tell the difference between DACs, they can't... the DAC chips are only made by a few companies a cheap CD player is the same as any other... you might as well bypass the DAC in the CD player altogether anyway if you're picky - send everything into your AMP/Receiver digital and let it do the job...
The amp might make a difference... in reality it doesn't often - so long as its sufficient to power your speakers then you're generally ok - big expensive amps don't actually make much difference at all - in a proper blind test people can't actually tell the difference between an expensive set up and a cheap one:
$700 set up vs $12,000 set up using the same speakers
http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm
the two main things that actually affect the sound are the speakers and the room you're in
other effects are usually psychological - people who buy into an irrational belief will find it harder to drop that belief, cognitive bias plays a part - branding, price etc...
'hi-fi' seems to be a bit like the nutrition industry - over complicating something which is relatively simple... because a whole industry has been built up around it they have to keep on promoting irrelevant things - creating super foods, making up things like 'detox' without explicitly stating what 'toxins' the process supposedly removes, selling vitamin pills which don't really do much for you if you've already got a balanced diet aside from giving you brightly coloured urine... most doctors can tell you that all you need to do is have a balanced diet/eat your greens...
below is probably the best piece of advice in the entire thread as far as music reproduction is concerned yet people have jumped all over the guy for it
I'd hope that most people on here are fully aware that that a gold plated network cable doesn't do anything to improve the depth of colours on the BBC website... similar myths seem to be readily lapped up in the world of hi-fi though
anyway I figured I'd contribute a general hi-fi rant/POV to the thread
replacing the knob on your amp with a wooden one, buying an expensive kettle lead to power your set up, drawing a green line around the edge of your CDs, buying expensive HDMI cables... all ought to fit into the full retard category and make as much sense to anyone with the slightest bit of technical knowledge as a gold plated network cable enhancing colours on a website....
speaker cables/interconnects... there is plenty of woo in this area... at first glance it seems marginally more plausible than the above claims, HDMI is obviously BS as its a digital signal... though it turns out ordinary copper cable is perfectly capable of carrying an analogue signal. Anyway there is much more thin copper cable on the inside of your speakers than the short, thick bit of cable going from your amp to them...
expensive CD players etc.. again a load of BS.. you can pay a bit more for some features if you like but its a digital source... some people might have fallen into believing their golden ears can tell the difference between DACs, they can't... the DAC chips are only made by a few companies a cheap CD player is the same as any other... you might as well bypass the DAC in the CD player altogether anyway if you're picky - send everything into your AMP/Receiver digital and let it do the job...
The amp might make a difference... in reality it doesn't often - so long as its sufficient to power your speakers then you're generally ok - big expensive amps don't actually make much difference at all - in a proper blind test people can't actually tell the difference between an expensive set up and a cheap one:
$700 set up vs $12,000 set up using the same speakers
http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm
the two main things that actually affect the sound are the speakers and the room you're in
other effects are usually psychological - people who buy into an irrational belief will find it harder to drop that belief, cognitive bias plays a part - branding, price etc...
'hi-fi' seems to be a bit like the nutrition industry - over complicating something which is relatively simple... because a whole industry has been built up around it they have to keep on promoting irrelevant things - creating super foods, making up things like 'detox' without explicitly stating what 'toxins' the process supposedly removes, selling vitamin pills which don't really do much for you if you've already got a balanced diet aside from giving you brightly coloured urine... most doctors can tell you that all you need to do is have a balanced diet/eat your greens...
below is probably the best piece of advice in the entire thread as far as music reproduction is concerned yet people have jumped all over the guy for it
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Soldato
It sounds like you haven't actually sat down and listened to different pieces of kit, DAC's can sound very different, some can sound pretty close to each other. Also amplifiers can sound different, some are warmer, some brighter, some have better control over the speakers.
I have heard differences from having demos of equipment in shops and also at home, sometimes the difference can be minimal, I agree speakers and the room will make a bigger difference than amps, cables make the smallest difference. I don't believe mains cables make and difference at all, speaker cables certainly do.
I have heard differences from having demos of equipment in shops and also at home, sometimes the difference can be minimal, I agree speakers and the room will make a bigger difference than amps, cables make the smallest difference. I don't believe mains cables make and difference at all, speaker cables certainly do.
DACs could sound different if their aim is to modify the signal in some way... otherwise there is not much to tell the difference.
Same with amps - if you're so sure you can tell the difference you're able to claim a reasonable prize:
http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm
I don't doubt that you've likely both heard real differences and perceived differences that weren't actually there... a shop isn't exactly a controlled environment, settings on the amps, volume they're played at etc.. differs and you're not testing blind rather you're allowing yourself to be swayed psychologically.
As far as cables are concerned that is likely in your head... there is the possibility of a real difference being heard when taking home some new monster cable... supposing your existing cable has been there for a few years and maybe pulled out slightly, or corroded at the connection, dust getting into the connection... you might actually have enough resistance there to affect the signal... you then pull that cable out and plug in new the monster cable and get a real difference.... problem is that the same difference could be heard by cutting a bit off the top of the existing cable and just reconnecting them.
Anything else (assuming you're not using really really thin cable over a big distance) is likely psychological....
If you really don't believe me then there is a very generous prize available for this one (much bigger than the amp challenge)... though I suspect that you'll be disappointed - your perceived differences between cables are much more likely down to the same psychological influences that every other human experiences and not down to some superhero-esq hearing that only you and a few other audiophiles posses.
http://gizmodo.com/305549/james-ran...iles-can-prove-7250-speaker-cables-are-better
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Soldato
Note, I didn't say that more expensive sounds better.
I own some Chord Epic speaker cable (£40/m) and it now sits unused in a cupboard, on initial home demo it wow'd me with it's crisp treble, I purchased some and after a while it started to grate on me with the extra brightness being a silver cable. I now use my own custom designed cables consisting of, Van Damme Hi-Fi for the low frequency and Tulsa Arrow for the high frequency, both of these cables are pure OFC and reasonably priced. Of course the difference between copper cables and silver cables is measurable, as silver is a better conductor.
I also compared my current Krell amp to my previous Arcam amp before I sold it, the most noticeable difference was the better bass control of the Krell. I find it incredible you think all amps sound the same, I may as well sell my nice Krell and buy a £80 Cambridge Audio. In fact you bring the Cambridge Audio round and blind test me, if I can't tell the difference you can keep my Krell.
I own some Chord Epic speaker cable (£40/m) and it now sits unused in a cupboard, on initial home demo it wow'd me with it's crisp treble, I purchased some and after a while it started to grate on me with the extra brightness being a silver cable. I now use my own custom designed cables consisting of, Van Damme Hi-Fi for the low frequency and Tulsa Arrow for the high frequency, both of these cables are pure OFC and reasonably priced. Of course the difference between copper cables and silver cables is measurable, as silver is a better conductor.
I also compared my current Krell amp to my previous Arcam amp before I sold it, the most noticeable difference was the better bass control of the Krell. I find it incredible you think all amps sound the same, I may as well sell my nice Krell and buy a £80 Cambridge Audio. In fact you bring the Cambridge Audio round and blind test me, if I can't tell the difference you can keep my Krell.